Just Say No...to Dusty!!!

[11BarryLarkin11]

In 2003, Dusty worked 22 year old Mark Prior very, very hard. Prior pitched 211.1 regular season innings and then went on to throw 23.1 more innings in the postseason, so he threw a cumulative 234.2 innings in 2003.

I just checked and by my count, he made 30 starts and here is the number of times he threw under 100 pitches and between 100-109 pitches, 110-119 pitches, 120-130 pitches, and 131+ pitches during the regular season:

Under 100: 4 Times
100-109: 7 Times
110-119: 10 Times
120-130: 6 Times
131 or more: 3 Times

So, he only threw fewer than 100 pitches in 4 out of his 30 starts.

More fun facts, look what Dusty did to him in September, when the Cubs needed to make a push for the postseason.

Sept. 1: 131 pitches
Sept. 6: 129 pitches
Sept. 11: 109 pitches
Sept 16: 124 pitches
Sept 21: 131 pitches
Sept 27: 133 pitches

By my count, that's 6 starts and 757 pitches in September at the end of a long season. Not to mention, back to back starts of 130+ pitches in the final 2 weeks of the season. After a long year and a lot of innings, Dusty had Prior throw two of his highest pitch count games.

Now, on to the postseason, where Prior put up the following pitch counts:

10/3 NLDS Game 3: CG 132 Pitches
10/8 NLCS Game 2: 115 Pitches (115 pitches despite Cubs scoring 12 runs through 6)
10/14 NLCS Game 6: 119 Pitches

So, Prior threw another 366 pitches in 3 post season games, which gives him a grand total of 3,764 pitches in 33 starts on the season.

Regular Season
Pitches: 3,398
GS: 30
#P/GS: 113

Post Season
Pitches: 366
GS: 3
#P/GS: 122

Just for comparison, Aaron Harang (one of the biggest workhorses in the league) threw the following number of pitches:

2005: 3,402 (32 Starts, #P/GS: 106)
2006: 3,734 (35 Starts, #P/GS: 107)
2007: 3,583 (34 Starts, #P/GS: 105)


So, at the ripe old age of 22, Mark Prior threw more pitches in a single season (combined regular season and postseason) than Aaron Harang ever has. And, he did it in fewer starts and by throwing far more pitches per start, which is even harder on the arm. I guess Prior should be thankful that he missed a few starts over a stretch in July/August, or else his arm might have just flown right off.

So, in short, just say no to Dusty Baker. That is truly terrible, indefensible handling of a young pitcher. I don't want him anywhere near Homer Bailey or Johnny Cueto!!!!

[Cyclone792]

Someone needs to frame this post and mail it to the Reds.

Make sure they get at least two copies in the mail every day until some other manager not named Dusty Baker is hired.

[Ltlabner]

Originally Posted by Cyclone792

Someone needs to frame this post and mail it to the Reds.

Make sure they get at least two copies in the mail every day until some other manager not named Dusty Baker is hired.

I said it in the other thread, and was serrious. I think RZ should start an letter/email/phone campaign to the Reds FO against Dusty. Since the vast majority of us feal that would be a disastrous choice, why not proactively take what steps we can to prevent it.

There's plenty of thoughtfull people who could compose notes with statistical and anitdotical evidence why Baker is a pitchers worst enemy and why any "youth movement" in Cincy will likely be squelched. Even if it's just a string of "please no Dusty" emails it might get someone's attention.

Beats the heck out of sitting back and listening to Wayne say, "I think the fans will be really excited about Dusty....."

Dusty's name is likely just wild speculation, but I'd rather over-react, than under-react on this one.

[LvJ]

If the Reds hire Dusty, I really don't see how I can continue to watch and be a supportive fan of this team.

Do. Not. Want.

[Topcat]

I throw my Lofty status vote Behind the say no to Dusty and I truly believe I have Homer Bailey's and Johnny Cueto's family's votes by Proxy!

[icehole3]

Dusty + Kremcheck = End of the Reds as we know it

[redsmetz]

Originally Posted by icehole3

Dusty + Kremcheck = End of the Reds as we know it

Isn't the "end of the Reds as we know it" more or less the point? We haven't had great pitching overall in years and years. We've had injuries and ineffective pitchers and on and on. One might argue that Baker would be more of the same, but he could hardly be "the end" - we've been mostly nowhere for too long.

[puca]

Originally Posted by icehole3

Dusty + Kremcheck = End of the Reds as we know it

I get your point and don't want Dusty anywhere near our young pitchers, but the 'reds as we know it' have not exactly been very good.

[Strikes Out Looking]

If the Reds want to interview a minority candidate, I say they need to talk to Billy Hatcher. He is one of the Red family and is a much better candidate to be the Reds manager than one Dusty "arm killer" Baker.

[redsmetz]

I know this is an unending drumbeat, but besides Prior and Wood, what other pitchers is Dusty Baker alleged to have destroyed?

I've seen some folks post information showing that some of Baker's pitchers were in the Top 10 of Pitcher Abuse Points (PAP), but not many; with the most glaring being Wood & Prior in 2003.

AlwaysRed had a great post on this at this link

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showp...&postcount=106

Some pitchers are more capable of being workhorses than others. And I think you might see a pattern of pitchers under Baker being on one year and off the next and yes that might be from overusing. WOY noted he relies heavily on his relievers and with the Reds, that might not be such a good thing unless there is a marked improvement.

This hysteria makes me think of the movie The Russians Are Coming, The Russians Are Coming!

[flyer85]

are there other issues with Dusty besides his tendency to overwork his starters?

[BRM]

Originally Posted by flyer85

are there other issues with Dusty besides his tendency to overwork his starters?

His love affair with low OBP guys at the top of the lineup. Then again, lots of managers seem to have that issue.

[flyer85]

Originally Posted by BRM

His love affair with low OBP guys at the top of the lineup.

unless you go completely outside the box it seems as if the Reds will be stuck with the conventional wisdom that you must have speed(at the expense of OBP) at the top of the lineup.

[BRM]

Originally Posted by flyer85

unless you go completely outside the box it seems as if the Reds will be stuck with the conventional wisdom that you must have speed(at the expense of OBP) at the top of the lineup.

It does look that way. Lots of managers prefer speed at the top, regardless of OBP. It will be interesting to see what happens to the youth movement if Dusty is brought in. Will he be willing to have three youngsters like Votto, BP, and EE in the infield? What about Jay Bruce? What kind of shot will he get? A lot of the young bullpenners could be finding new homes as well.

[RedsManRick]

Originally Posted by flyer85

are there other issues with Dusty besides his tendency to overwork his starters?

He abhors playing young guys until they absolutely prove that they are better... assuming they get a chance to do so.

He's been accused with not listening to both Chad Fox and Robb Nen when they said they couldn't pitch -- both of their careers ended early due to injury.

He has a complete lack of understanding when it comes to sample size. He'll start the guy who's 2 for 5 against a pitcher ahead of the normal starter who is 15 for 50.

He's a slave to "conventional" thinking, using lefties as LOOGYs inappropriately and pinch hitting a crappy hitter for a good one to take advantage of a non-existent platoon (especially if it's a vet for a young guy).

Using Juan Pierre and Tony Womack as "double leadoff guys" should tell you all you need to know -- if giving Neifi Perez 572 AB doesn't.

If Dusty comes in, bet on a lot of Freel at 3rd and Cantu at first with Stanton as the primary setup guy. Arroyo will be injured by July.