Managerial search over. It's Dusty.

[Ltlabner]

Originally Posted by Falls City Beer

I agree. I think the more and more I read the clubhouse mindset needs a reinvention.

But since I can't quantify it, I guess it doesn't matter. Because clearly a guy like Bobby Cox never squeezed blood from some of the stones he's been handed over the years.

There's definatley been a number of head scratching incidents that point towards clubhouse discord over the past couple of years. If Dusty can clear that out, and get people rowing in the same direction (assuming it's towards the finish line and not over the Victoria Falls) I can give him kudos for that.

[Tom Servo]

Because I have nothing better to do with my time here's a list of players I compiled potentially available in free agency this offseason who have played for Dusty either with the Giants, Cubs, or both:

Barry Bonds
Sammy Sosa
Livan Hernandez
Matt Clement
Kerry Wood
Russ Ortiz
Greg Maddux
Moises Alou
Ramon Martinez
Julian Tavarez
Joe Borowoski
LaTroy Hawkins
Michael Barrett
Yorvit Torrealba
Pedro Feliz
Reggie Sanders
Kenny Lofton
Cesar Izturis
Antonio Alfonseca
Scott Linebrink
Corey Patterson

[Gainesville Red]

That list scares the hell out of me.

[fearofpopvol1]

There are a couple names on that list that I think would be decent gambles if they can be acquired at reasonable money.

[reds44]

Kerry Wood would look really good in the Reds bullpen.

[coachw513]

Originally Posted by VR

gm and I share the same sickness....being Reds and Vikes fans. (I like the Sixers too, so I should get more sympathy.) I'm in the middle of the trifecta every fan dreads. Your team is THE most embarrassing in every pro sport.

Sorry, but I have to put my Reds, Dolphins and Lakers up there for valid comparision ...It's a wonder I haven't gone postal

As for the hire...sometimes I wonder what I would think if I had never discovered Reds Zone??...because with every passing day of being introduced to well-defined thought and discussion about this franchise here (not that I always agree with it), I'm fascinated by the total disconnect with the Reds FO as compared to the body of thought presented here...which lends me to ask why???...is there some knowledge, some details of information available only in the secret corners of Sarasota and Cincinnati and not readily discernable by the deeply passionate, intelligent masses here???...or rather, is this yet another reflection of a lack of "corporate vision" that seemingly has defined the Reds for way too long...

I work and coach at a brand new high school...I did not/do not have existing deep relationships with my current administration, so with each passing day I begin to evaluate my opinion of the depth of organizational plan and quality, reactive thinking...well, the fear of my day-to-day can be expressed this way...some classes still don't have books, we've had a massive schedule change based on poor budgeting/resource allocation and we love to waste time with poorly defined meetings, but to make it all better our principal is proud that she can offer us coffee, juice and bagels on Friday mornings to get our day off to a good start ...I fear "IT'S ALL ABOUT THE SHOW", a very scary thought in the world of education...no plan IS a plan, it's just a very, very bad one...

Well, that's what this move reeks of to me...as opposed to selecting a manager that clearly has experience and talent working with a core of young, talented position players and pitchers, we hire the opposite...instead of hiring someone with experience nurturing and developing pitching, we hire the opposite...we apparently don't need to follow a deeply felt organizational plan when we can make news with the hiring of Dusty Baker...I mean, we were on ESPN yesterday...we are relevant again...isn't this exciting?? I fail to believe we can't change the emotional tenor of our clubhouse and on the field with someone who seemingly shares the ability to develop talent, appreciate common-sense baseball tools and have the emotional demeanor not to meltdown and cast blame elsewhere when adversity strikes...

For those that haven't had the ability to read this entire thread, I with deep pain repost this incredible set of statistics from Cyclone:

Originally Posted by Cyclone792

Mark Prior's pitch counts of 115+ in 2003 ...

May 12th: 124 pitches
May 28th: 123 pitches
June 3rd: 124 pitches
June 19th: 119 pitches
June 26th: 127 pitches
July 1st: 115 pitches
August 10th: 116 pitches
August 15th: 118 pitches
August 26th: 116 pitches
----------------------
September 1st: 131 pitches
September 6th: 129 pitches
September 16th: 124 pitches
September 21st: 131 pitches
September 27th: 133 pitches
October 3rd: 133 pitches
October 8th: 116 pitches
October 14th: 119 pitches

FTR, Mark Prior turned 23-years-old in September of 2003.

I don't know whether Bailey and Cueto and even Maloney are the real thing...I don't know whether Arroyo needs a special eye on his work-load...I do know that it's simply ignorant to hire someone that needs counsel on this...WE CAN'T DO BETTER???...

But I will go nowhere...I will watch every game I can and will read the papers and RZ every single day online...I love the Reds...

But it is not easy...

[Matt700wlw]

Originally Posted by reds44

Kerry Wood would look really good in the Reds bullpen.

THAT could work

[Unassisted]

Looks like Doc has been visiting here.

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.d...PT04/310140013

Doc: Give Baker a break
BY PAUL DAUGHERTY

No love for Dusty Baker. Nothing but bile for a man with more than 1,100 career wins, whose teams have finished either first or second in eight of his 14 seasons as a manager. A guy who has been NL Manager of the Year three times, who took the Chicago Cubs closer to the World Series altar than any manager in almost 50 years?

He stinks, you say. Terrible pick. You won’t go to the games, you won’t renew your season tickets. You’re done with the Reds.

Ownership believed you’d love their choice. An established manager with clubhouse cred, a players manager, a guy who co-existed with the world’s most ornery athlete, Barry Bonds. You wanted someone who wasn’t an afterthought, a fill-in, a finger in the dike of losing. Well, here he is.

You’re more than irritated.

Judging from the comments to Cincinnati.Com's, e-mail and callers to my radio show on 700 WLW, you’re offended.

How come?

What do you want?

Do not say Joe Girardi or Tony La Russa. Reds ownership judged Girardi not worth the trouble, which says a lot. Girardi won 78 games two years ago, with a $15 million payroll. You’d think miserly Florida Marlins ownership would have locked him up forever and beyond. Instead, they fired him. Red flags all around.

La Russa, ultimately, was not going to come here. He’s 63, doesn’t want to start all over. If he does, it’ll be with a team he thinks can win immediately. Probably, he’ll be in St. Louis next April, or at home.

Point is, prospective managers don’t grow up dreaming of managing the Cincinnati Reds. So tell me, again, why Baker is the least popular choice since Vern Rapp.

Burns out pitchers, you say. Look at Mark Prior and Kerry Wood. Well, Wood was a time-bomb, a hard thrower with lousy mechanics. Prior might have been ridden too hard, but this was 2003 and the Cubs were chasing their first Series since 1945. Baker’s not the only guy making the calls on Prior’s pitch count. You could say it was a total team effort, from ownership on down.

Favors veterans, you say. No, more than that. Pampers them. Could be. Question: Could Junior Griffey be coddled any more than he is already? What veterans, exactly, would Baker spoil? The Reds are going to be younger than an Olympic gymnast. Adam Dunn? By inside accounts, Dunn is ready to lead, not be led. Who else might Dusty spoil? David Ross?

Part of Baker’s image as a butt-kisser of older guys comes from having to deal with Bonds. What would any manager have done differently with Barry? Do you really think a Lou Piniella or a Joe Girardi would have stood up to Bonds’ act? Doubtful.

What else? It could be this age of quicker-than-instant communication exaggerates everything, especially anger. Baker is the first manager hired in the offseason since Bob Boone, in 2001. In the six years since, chat rooms and message boards and such have exploded. It’s much easier to let the world know your anger now.

Or maybe part of it is Baker’s black. Is that it? Tell me it’s not. Marvin Lewis is black, but that’s the Bengals, here just since 1968, never taken as personally around here as the Reds. I’d like to think we’re past skin color. Wishing doesn’t make it so.

Here’s what Baker has to do to make you eat your bias: Lead. Identify a few vets capable of doing your bidding in the clubhouse. Set a tone of professionalism that is absent now. Insist on it.

When Joey Votto goes 1-for-20, stay with him. When Homer Bailey hits 100 pitches, remove him. Get yourself a good pitching coach. Leo Mazzone’s available. Other than that, get yourself a figurative flak jacket. You’re gonna need it.

[jojo]

Originally Posted by pedro

My point is that they have been able to harvest the fruit of their minor league crops because they've had pretty much the same foremen running the farm since 1991, not necessarily because they're statistically driven.

But if you look at HOW their farm system/organisation is run, it's pretty clear that Shapiro's gutting and retooling of the Indians wasn't successful simply because an existing pipeline was tapped. As a bit of context, by 2001 the Indians were unsustainably old and getting expensive in part because Hart had tapped out their high minor league system (i.e. trading guys like Sexson, Casey and Giles) in order to plug holes on their 25 man roster. Shapiro was promoted to GM in 2001 in order to oversee a rebuilding process in the face of shrinking payroll. He largely implemented a new organization-wide, statistically-driven process to degrees that were considered heretical at the time. Guys like Epstien and Antonetti mined DiamondView (their revolutionary stat-driven, computer-based system that functions to meld scouting and statistical analysis in such as way as to produce a cohesive system that guides their decisions on every level of the organisation) to provide the data that the FO relied heavily upon in making decisions at all levels of their organisation. Also, the retooling process didn't just rely on in house player development. DiamondView was instrumental in targeting guys like Hafner, Lee and Sizemore who were acquired via TRADE in '02. It's far to argue that continuity was important component for the Indians to develop their system but it was the the innovative philosophical transformation of the Indians FO by Shapiro where the reliance upon a statistically-driven system formed the core of their philosophy that allowed them to retool so quickly and successfully.

It wasn't "more of the same" but rather a dramatic change in the way they did business.

[Ltlabner]

Prior might have been ridden too hard, but this was 2003 and the Cubs were chasing their first Series since 1945.

Or maybe part of it is Baker’s black.

Question: Could Junior Griffey be coddled any more than he is already?

Might have been ridden too hard? Might? And its ok to leave a pitcher twisting in the wind racking up the huge pitch counts Cyclone posted as long as you are in a penant race?

Because he's black? That didn't take long. There's been a long stream of intelligent and well throught out positions pro/con on Dusty since the news broke. Yea. Obviously racism.

And then Doc totally misses the point regarding vet players. It's not about kissing their butts, it's about turning a blind eye to the younger tallent. Nice dig at Jr. by the way.

Quality stuff there Doc. :thumbdown

[jojo]

Originally Posted by M2

Not everyone has to do exactly as you would have them do. Plus, if they all did the same thing, it would create new blind spots (which Billy Beane would only be too happy to exploit).

Can the traditional approach work? Golly, I don't know. Ask the Cardinals, Tigers, White Sox, Astros, Marlins, Angels, Giants and D-Backs, all of whom have made the World Series this century with a significant traditional bent (though some have blended traditional with new school because the world isn't black and white). Ask the Braves and Twins if the traditional approach can net you any results.

From 1997-2004, the Giants had eight straight winning campaigns, three division titles, a wild card and a World Series appearance. They averaged 92.25 wins a year during that stretch. Dusty Baker was their manager seven of those eight seasons. Can it work? Good Lord.

That ignores the argument though. I'm suggesting that trends seem to indicate a shift in the way many FO's are approaching their businesses (including big market teams like NY and Boston) and many of these changes take advantage of inefficiencies in the traditional approach.

I'm looking forward and suggesting that if the Reds don't also, they will find it even more difficult to compete consistently in the future than they find it now. You're looking in the past and suggesting it won't matter.

[Caveat Emperor]

Who else might Dusty spoil?

Nefi Perez:

 Year Ag Tm  Lg  G   AB    R    H   2B 3B  HR  RBI  SB CS  BB  SO   BA   OBP   SLG *OPS+  TB   SH  SF IBB HBP GDP 
+--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+----+---+---+---+---+---+
2005 32 CHC NL 154  572   59  157  33  1   9   54   8  4  18  47  .274  .298  .383   77  219  12   4   3   3  2

Why I hate this hire is summarized perfectly by this line.

[Matt700wlw]

Leave Doc alone...I have to work with him all week..



The black thing, unfortunately came up 2 days after the original story broke...I'm surprised it took that long...


It's sad that that issue actually has merit

[KronoRed]

Another awful article from the Enquirer

[Caveat Emperor]

Originally Posted by Matt700wlw

Leave Doc alone...I have to work with him all week..

Tell him to read a little closer.

The points being made on all sides are coherent and well-argued. Yes -- Dusty has a great history of success as a manager. But, there are red flags all over the place that seem to indicate he'll be a poor fit in this city with this team.

To throw the race card out there now is just lazy writing, IMO.