Dusty Baker "Old School"????

[Triples]

In a thread in ORG, someone labeled Dusty Baker as old school. I understand the "old school" concept but I'm not sure I see how it applies in baseball. What is so different about the game today than in the "old days" what ever they are. And, why does Dusty Baker fall into the "old school" catagory.

[AmarilloRed]

I may be able to speak to this because I was a fan back in the "old days". It used to be that starting pitchers would go very deep into games, and relievers if used at all would only close out the game. Dusty likes to have his starting pitchers go deep into games, so he qualifies in that respect. Baserunning was also a very large part of the game to a much greater extent than it is now, and the only power hitters hit in the middle of the lineup. Rookies needed to prove themselves over several seasons, and I don't believe you would have ever seen a rookie starting at a position his very first year in the league. Dusty has a history of preferring veterans over rookies, so he could also be considered "old school" in this respect. These are just some of the ways things were different in the past as opposed to now, and I am sure some other members could speak to further differences.

[Natty Redlocks]

Old school: Batting average, stolen bases, rbi, pitcher wins, fielding %

New school: There is a huge amount of statistical data now that attempts to quantify the value of a player. For hitters, on-base % + slugging % (OPS) is probably the most widely used "new school" stat. For pitchers, it's WHIP (walks + hits per innings pitched).

There are way more and most of them are over my head, but when I think of new school vs. old school, I think of statheads vs. baseball guys. You'll find most of the Redszone statheads on ORG and if you read their stuff, some of it is actually very impressive and persuasive.

Anyway, Dusty Baker with his obvious contempt for OBP (evidenced by his famous "walks clog the bases" quote, and his repeated insistence on batting speedy guys who can't get on base at the top of the order) is definitely "old school", which will probably one day be known as "ignorant school".

[WMR]

Read the third quote in my sig.

[stevekun]

For what its worth, this is just my oppinion...but old school baseball is better...it might not win now but its better baseball

[texasdave]

Ignorant school is a little harsh. How about this one. Hit the ball and run the bases until you see the umpire give the HR signal - old school. Hit the ball and stand at home plate admiring your shot and then have to settle for a single when the ball doesn't go out - new school. Which one is 'ignorant' there?

[WMR]

Originally Posted by texasdave

Ignorant school is a little harsh. How about this one. Hit the ball and run the bases until you see the umpire give the HR signal - old school. Hit the ball and stand at home plate admiring your shot and then have to settle for a single when the ball doesn't go out - new school. Which one is 'ignorant' there?

That's not "new school" baseball.

C'mon.

"New school" baseball is an ideology about statistics and what they represent, not showboating.

[jimbo]

Originally Posted by Natty Redlocks

Anyway, Dusty Baker with his obvious contempt for OBP (evidenced by his famous "walks clog the bases" quote, and his repeated insistence on batting speedy guys who can't get on base at the top of the order) is definitely "old school", which will probably one day be known as "ignorant school".

So all of the great managers of the past were "ignorant?"

[WMR]

Originally Posted by jimbo

So all of the great managers of the past were "ignorant?"

No. You wouldn't call someone ignorant for not using the newest cancer treatments 100 years ago when those treatments didn't exist.

Someone living in today's time who ignores the newest medicinal treatments available and pretends they don't even exist, however, is a close-minded buffoon.

[jimbo]

Originally Posted by WilyMoROCKS

No. You wouldn't call someone ignorant for not using the newest cancer treatments 100 years ago when those treatments didn't exist.

Someone living in today's time who ignores the newest medicinal treatments available and pretends they don't even exist, however, is a close-minded buffoon.

I hear what you are saying, but I don't think it's a fair comparison. The advancements of medicine is factual while the newer stats of today is not actual proof that "new school" is any better than "old school." It's just a different style. I like some of the new stats out today also, but do not think they are the say all and do all of baseball today. That doesn't make me a buffoon.

I think there are lot of things about our society today that would be a lot better off if more "old school" was used.

[WMR]

Originally Posted by jimbo

I hear what you are saying, but I don't think it's a fair comparison. The advancements of medicine is factual while the newer stats of today is not actual proof that "new school" is any better than "old school." It's just a different style. I like some of the new stats out today also, but do not think they are the say all and do all of baseball today. That doesn't make me a buffoon.

I think there are lot of things about our society today that would be a lot better off if more "old school" was used.

Anyone who says walks "clog the bases" is, in my opinion, hopelessly stuck in the past instead of realizing that the ideal outcome for any trip to the plate is to NOT MAKE AN OUT.

[jimbo]

Originally Posted by WilyMoROCKS

Anyone who says walks "clog the bases" is, in my opinion, hopelessly stuck in the past instead of realizing that the ideal outcome for any trip to the plate is to NOT MAKE AN OUT.

So you've based your entire opinion of the man on one statement? I guess I tend to look at the entire puzzle instead of one piece.

[WMR]

Originally Posted by jimbo

So you've based your entire opinion of the man on one statement? I guess I tend to look at the entire puzzle instead of one piece.

No offense, but duh, me too.

I've followed Dusty's managing career since he was with the Giants, and his decisions have consistently adhered to his stated views toward the "right way" to play baseball. And Dusty has never been reticent about sharing his opinions.

[DannyB]

"New" school is a R-L-R-L-R-L-R batting order to keep the other team from using a certain pitcher late in the game even if your Rs or Ls cant hit or get on base.
"Old" school is putting your on base guys in front of your RBI guys and getting a big enough lead to not worry about what pitcher you see late in the game.

[WMR]

Originally Posted by DannyB

"New" school is a R-L-R-L-R-L-R batting order to keep the other team from using a certain pitcher late in the game even if your Rs or Ls cant hit or get on base.
"Old" school is putting your on base guys in front of your RBI guys and getting a big enough lead to not worry about what pitcher you see late in the game.

Actually, the "new school" approach would NEVER advocate batting players R-L-R-L simply to split up the lefties and righties. The "new school" approach would advocate setting up your line-up so that your highest OBP players get the maximum amount of at-bats without worrying about whether or not they are lefty or righty.