3:10 to Yuma

[RFS62]

Wow, that's some analysis there, GAC and Steel.

I knew something was up in that last scene when Wade was going on and on about the "best onion rings in Yuma".

[Raisor]

Originally Posted by SteelSD

And the more I think about the ending of the film, the more I'm convinced that we should expect Wade to escape from the train and that his very next act would be to return to Evans' ranch to ensure that the railroad pays its debt to Evans' family. .

Heck, they pretty much forshadowed it perfectly with Wade whistling for his horse. He only got on that train because of Evans' son. He wanted the son to feel that his father hadn't failed.

[GAC]

Originally Posted by mth123

Of the modern westerns (Post John Wayne era) I like Tombstone, Silverado and 3:10 to Yuma in that order. Unforgiven and Pale Rider were both disappointing IMO and were largely popular due to an audience that was hungry for the Nostalgia of Eastwood in a Western. Broken Trail and Open Range were both very good as well.

My question of the day: The line "I'm your Huckleberry" was perfect in Tombstone but what is the origin? Is it some phrase that only I'd never heard before? Was it a popular phrase in the 1800's? Is it something Doc Holiday was actually known to say? Or was it just made up for the movie? Anyone know? I get the gist of it from the context, but what is it supposed to mean exactly? Why is "I'm your huckleberry" supposed to mean your fight is with me or pick on me or whatever?

I found this......

http://home.earthlink.net/~knuthco1/...errysource.htm

I'M YOUR HUCKLEBERRY

On and off I hear discussions in which people speculate on the exact origin and meaning is of the quaint idiom used by Doc Holliday in the movie "Tombstone." I've heard some wild suggestions, including "huckleberry" meaning "pall-bearer" suggesting "I'll bury you."

Still others think it has something to do with Mark Twain's character, Huckleberry Finn, and means "steadfast friend, pard." This is unlikely, since the book of that title was not written until 1883. Tom Sawyer was written in 1876, but nowhere there is the term "huckleberry" used to mean "steadfast friend" or the like. Still others claim that a victor's crown or wreath of huckleberry is involved, making the statement "I'm your huckleberry" something like "I'll beat you!" But no such reference can be found in the historical materials supporting the use of this term in 19th century America. Additionally, "huckleberry" was native to North America so it's unlikely it was used in ancient Britain as a prize!
Solutions to such questions are actually very easy to find, since there are numerous dictionaries of the English language in its various periods, and there are dictionaries of English slang. These works simply cull from books, magazines, and newspapers of the period representative usages of the words to illustrate their meaning. I consulted several of these and found the expression to have a very interesting origin.
"Huckleberry" was commonly used in the 1800's in conjunction with "persimmon" as a small unit of measure. "I'm a huckleberry over your persimmon" meant "I'm just a bit better than you." As a result, "huckleberry" came to denote idiomatically two things. First, it denoted a small unit of measure, a "tad," as it were, and a person who was a huckleberry could be a small, unimportant person--usually expressed ironically in mock self-depreciation. The second and more common usage came to mean, in the words of the "Dictionary of American Slang: Second Supplemented Edition" (Crowell, 1975):
"A man; specif., the exact kind of man needed for a particular purpose. 1936: "Well, I'm your huckleberry, Mr. Haney." Tully, "Bruiser," 37. Since 1880, archaic.
The "Historical Dictionary of American Slang" which is a multivolume work, has about a third of a column of citations documenting this meaning all through the latter 19th century.
So "I'm your huckleberry" means "I'm just the man you're looking for!"

[Mario-Rijo]

Originally Posted by SteelSD

SPOILERS AHEAD!!! STOP IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN THE FILM!!!





Really good synopsis, GAC. But I'm not sure that Wade admired Evans (Bale) as much as he wanted to be Evans. Wade's interaction with Evans' wife (see: green eyes). Comments about how he would treat Evans' wife better. Even the rift he attempted to create between Evans and his son was, IMHO, born more of wanting a son than anything else.

Throughout the film, Wade attempted to test Evans as if Wade couldn't accept that Evans was truly a good man. The last test was the next-to-final scene and Evans passed. At that moment, I think that Wade felt he could actually be Evans, if only for a brief moment, if he could allow Evans to get him to the train. He was robbed of that moment by the actions of Charlie and the rest of his gang.

To me, it was pretty apparent that Wade wanted out even prior to the last stage coach robbery. The drawing of the bird he left on the tree was an indication, IMHO. Ditto his bizarre behavior at the saloon, where he stays behind and asks the waitress to jump out the back window and go with him to Mexico. She rejects the idea, and instead of using the back window himself, he walks back into the saloon knowing that the law is back in town. It was as if he was trying to get caught. His actions were both reckless and stupid- the same type of behavior he had blamed, less than an hour earlier, for the demise of Tommy Darden. One way or another, I think that Wade knew he was done. To me, the barmaid's rejection just set the path.

In the seconds after Evans was shot, I feel that Wade finally realized that his gang was part of the cost of his tradeoff (life of crime and riches rather than a hard, honest living with a wife and family). From my perspective, that's why he eliminated them. After all, if they wouldn't allow him to have at least a moment of being a good man, then how would they ever allow him to get out?

Both good explanations. But I have to think that it's does make a little more sense now with your synopsis Steel. I got all of it except his desire to be like Evans that makes sense.

Either way a solid movie, just not the pure adventure that I always enjoy.

[nate]

Very deep analysis, Steel and GAC...interesting! I'll have to watch again.

[WMR]

Originally Posted by SteelSD

The Pharaoh (sp?) table exchange between Kilmer's " Doc Holliday" and Michael Beihn's "Johnny Ringo" was one of the best face-offs I've ever seen and it set the tone for the rest of the film. BTW, here's what could have been the conversation when tranlated into that period's vernacular English:

http://www.dacc.cc.il.us/~jeff/tombstone-latin.html

Holliday: "Wine loosens the tongue."

Ringo: "You better pay attention to what you're doing."

Holliday: "Go tell someone else."

Ringo: "Fools must learn through experience."

Holliday: "Rest in peace."

The funny thing is that I didn't need to see the translation to understand what was going on while watching the scene. It was established at that point that not only is Holliday the smarter of the two- especially after the cup-spinning response to Ringo's gun tricks- but that Holliday is also likely the better gunfighter. We didn't understand the language, but we understood the scene. The more dangerous man spun a cup. That's brilliance in a nutshell.

For me, Kilmer's "I'm your huckleberry." response in response to Ringo's post-O.K. Corral "play for blood" demand in the street is up there with the greatest single lines of all time. Val Kilmer's performance was incredible. I'm sure it was much to Kurt Russell's dismay (especially since he was very good), but Kilmer stole every scene. Every one.

While 3:10 to Yuma is a great Western film, Tombstone is one of the best films in that genre's history IMHO. The funny thing is that I don't even own the film. I've seen it so many times that I'll only purchase it at this point on high-def (if it's ever released). But every single time I happen across it while it's running on a movie channel I stop everything in order to sit down and watch it. Dont' care where I join the flick. I just want to watch the rest of it. I honestly think the only movies I've seen more times than Tombstone are Star Wars and Empire Strikes Back.

As for "3:10 to Yuma" being on-par with "Unforgiven"? Well, I think a lot of the allure for that movie is Clint Eastwood playing a gunfighter. I liked the film, but it was slow to develop although the payoff was good. I'd actually slot "3:10" above "Unforgiven", but would place both behind "Tombstone".

They've been playing Tombstone on one of the HD channels quite regularly for awhile now. I'm the same way as you. Wherever I see it on, wherever in the movie it might be, I'll watch the rest of it. A really fun movie to watch in high-def.

[mth123]

Originally Posted by GAC

I found this......

http://home.earthlink.net/~knuthco1/...errysource.htm

I'M YOUR HUCKLEBERRY

On and off I hear discussions in which people speculate on the exact origin and meaning is of the quaint idiom used by Doc Holliday in the movie "Tombstone." I've heard some wild suggestions, including "huckleberry" meaning "pall-bearer" suggesting "I'll bury you."

Still others think it has something to do with Mark Twain's character, Huckleberry Finn, and means "steadfast friend, pard." This is unlikely, since the book of that title was not written until 1883. Tom Sawyer was written in 1876, but nowhere there is the term "huckleberry" used to mean "steadfast friend" or the like. Still others claim that a victor's crown or wreath of huckleberry is involved, making the statement "I'm your huckleberry" something like "I'll beat you!" But no such reference can be found in the historical materials supporting the use of this term in 19th century America. Additionally, "huckleberry" was native to North America so it's unlikely it was used in ancient Britain as a prize!
Solutions to such questions are actually very easy to find, since there are numerous dictionaries of the English language in its various periods, and there are dictionaries of English slang. These works simply cull from books, magazines, and newspapers of the period representative usages of the words to illustrate their meaning. I consulted several of these and found the expression to have a very interesting origin.
"Huckleberry" was commonly used in the 1800's in conjunction with "persimmon" as a small unit of measure. "I'm a huckleberry over your persimmon" meant "I'm just a bit better than you." As a result, "huckleberry" came to denote idiomatically two things. First, it denoted a small unit of measure, a "tad," as it were, and a person who was a huckleberry could be a small, unimportant person--usually expressed ironically in mock self-depreciation. The second and more common usage came to mean, in the words of the "Dictionary of American Slang: Second Supplemented Edition" (Crowell, 1975):
"A man; specif., the exact kind of man needed for a particular purpose. 1936: "Well, I'm your huckleberry, Mr. Haney." Tully, "Bruiser," 37. Since 1880, archaic.
The "Historical Dictionary of American Slang" which is a multivolume work, has about a third of a column of citations documenting this meaning all through the latter 19th century.
So "I'm your huckleberry" means "I'm just the man you're looking for!"

Thanks.

[SteelSD]

Originally Posted by Raisor

Heck, they pretty much forshadowed it perfectly with Wade whistling for his horse. He only got on that train because of Evans' son. He wanted the son to feel that his father hadn't failed.

You may be right about the Wade's motivation for getting on the train.

However, William Evans had already told his father that he'd completed his mission by getting Wade on the train the first time. At that point, I'm not sure that anything Wade would have done would have changed Will's opinion of his father. IMHO, Evans was already a "hero" in his son's eyes. I'd suggest that wouldn't have changed had Wade not boarded the train. William's inability to kill Wade had nothing to do with his father. William didn't kill Wade because he knew that he wasn't anything like Wade (even though Wade previously suggested otherwise). And Wade was waiting for it. He gave himself up to William (no gun, no defense). Wade basically said, "Kill me. Be my successor. Be my son." But William wouldn't do it because he finally knew who his father really was.

IMHO, Wade boarded the train the second time in search of absolution for his past deeds after killing his gang (the epitome of what he had created). And I think that, by walking through the threshold of the cell on the train, he was able to (in his eyes) find it.

To me, the interesting thing is that I don't think Wade's character changed at all during the film. I don't think he suddenly found compassion or humanity. He was, after all, completely selfish the entire time. In the end, I think Wade only finaly found the purpose hidden in his true nature.

BTW, for everyone who's contributed to this topic, I'd like to congratulate you on what has been, to me, one of the better non-baseball threads ever on Redszone. Really fantastic stuff.

[GAC]

Maybe Evan's perception (or misconception) of what a hero is, was quite different from his son's?

Evan saw his life as a failure in many ways. Yet from the eye's of an "outsider", his son, he saw his Dad struggle with hardship and trials yet held to his character while providing for his family.

"You can't see the trees for the forest."

Evan was George Bailey!

[dman]

Originally Posted by GAC

I found this......

http://home.earthlink.net/~knuthco1/...errysource.htm

I'M YOUR HUCKLEBERRY

On and off I hear discussions in which people speculate on the exact origin and meaning is of the quaint idiom used by Doc Holliday in the movie "Tombstone." I've heard some wild suggestions, including "huckleberry" meaning "pall-bearer" suggesting "I'll bury you."

Still others think it has something to do with Mark Twain's character, Huckleberry Finn, and means "steadfast friend, pard." This is unlikely, since the book of that title was not written until 1883. Tom Sawyer was written in 1876, but nowhere there is the term "huckleberry" used to mean "steadfast friend" or the like. Still others claim that a victor's crown or wreath of huckleberry is involved, making the statement "I'm your huckleberry" something like "I'll beat you!" But no such reference can be found in the historical materials supporting the use of this term in 19th century America. Additionally, "huckleberry" was native to North America so it's unlikely it was used in ancient Britain as a prize!
Solutions to such questions are actually very easy to find, since there are numerous dictionaries of the English language in its various periods, and there are dictionaries of English slang. These works simply cull from books, magazines, and newspapers of the period representative usages of the words to illustrate their meaning. I consulted several of these and found the expression to have a very interesting origin.
"Huckleberry" was commonly used in the 1800's in conjunction with "persimmon" as a small unit of measure. "I'm a huckleberry over your persimmon" meant "I'm just a bit better than you." As a result, "huckleberry" came to denote idiomatically two things. First, it denoted a small unit of measure, a "tad," as it were, and a person who was a huckleberry could be a small, unimportant person--usually expressed ironically in mock self-depreciation. The second and more common usage came to mean, in the words of the "Dictionary of American Slang: Second Supplemented Edition" (Crowell, 1975):
"A man; specif., the exact kind of man needed for a particular purpose. 1936: "Well, I'm your huckleberry, Mr. Haney." Tully, "Bruiser," 37. Since 1880, archaic.
The "Historical Dictionary of American Slang" which is a multivolume work, has about a third of a column of citations documenting this meaning all through the latter 19th century.
So "I'm your huckleberry" means "I'm just the man you're looking for!"

GAC, from what I gathered, the term "I'm your huckleberry" came from funeral services of the era. Pallbearers were known to have worn huckleberry leaves on their lapels to indicate their duty. The term orginally was coined hucklebearers, but as time went on it mophed into huckleberry because of the leaf. So when Doc would say "I'm your huckleberry:, he was essentially saying "I'll be the one to carry you in your own casket.

[BoydsOfSummer]

Okay, I've now seen Yuma and read through the Dunn-Like analysis.: Very good film, however not enough to surpass Unforgiven in my eyes.

I really liked 'Wyatt Earp' with Costner; more than most here apparently.

I would rank them:
Unforgiven
Tombstone
3:10 to Yuma

[Mario-Rijo]

Originally Posted by SteelSD

You may be right about the Wade's motivation for getting on the train.

However, William Evans had already told his father that he'd completed his mission by getting Wade on the train the first time. At that point, I'm not sure that anything Wade would have done would have changed Will's opinion of his father. IMHO, Evans was already a "hero" in his son's eyes. I'd suggest that wouldn't have changed had Wade not boarded the train. William's inability to kill Wade had nothing to do with his father. William didn't kill Wade because he knew that he wasn't anything like Wade (even though Wade previously suggested otherwise). And Wade was waiting for it. He gave himself up to William (no gun, no defense). Wade basically said, "Kill me. Be my successor. Be my son." But William wouldn't do it because he finally knew who his father really was.

IMHO, Wade boarded the train the second time in search of absolution for his past deeds after killing his gang (the epitome of what he had created). And I think that, by walking through the threshold of the cell on the train, he was able to (in his eyes) find it.

To me, the interesting thing is that I don't think Wade's character changed at all during the film. I don't think he suddenly found compassion or humanity. He was, after all, completely selfish the entire time. In the end, I think Wade only finaly found the purpose hidden in his true nature.

BTW, for everyone who's contributed to this topic, I'd like to congratulate you on what has been, to me, one of the better non-baseball threads ever on Redszone. Really fantastic stuff.

It certainly has been very good conversation, very deep!

[Mario-Rijo]

Originally Posted by BoydsOfSummer

Okay, I've now seen Yuma and read through the Dunn-Like analysis.: Very good film, however not enough to surpass Unforgiven in my eyes.

I really liked 'Wyatt Earp' with Costner; more than most here apparently.

I would rank them:
Unforgiven
Tombstone
3:10 to Yuma

My top 10 is: (Put in order of what I would watch 1st if they were all on at the same time)

Lonesome Dove
Tombstone
Return to Lonesome Dove
Young Guns
The Sons of Katie Elder
Dances with Wolves (I count it)
Unforgiven
3:10 to Yuma
The Magnificent Seven
Wyatt Earp
The Quick and the Dead *Edit* (#10 is changed to Open Range)

My only obvious thumbs down is:
The Wild Bunch - Had to turn it off about 1/4 of the way through!

Special Mention to:
Anything w/ Eastwood, Wayne, Duvall, Costner & Sam Elliott in it.

[SteelSD]

Originally Posted by dman

GAC, from what I gathered, the term "I'm your huckleberry" came from funeral services of the era. Pallbearers were known to have worn huckleberry leaves on their lapels to indicate their duty. The term orginally was coined hucklebearers, but as time went on it mophed into huckleberry because of the leaf. So when Doc would say "I'm your huckleberry:, he was essentially saying "I'll be the one to carry you in your own casket.

From what I've read, either "I'm just the man for the job." or "I'll take you to your grave." would be reasonable interpretations. But considering that Holliday's next words were "That's just my game.", I'd suggest that "I'm just the man for the job, that's just my game." would likely be the best interpretation as "I'll take you to your grave." probably wouldn't have needed a follow-up after Holliday's prior Latin phrase that can be translated as "Rest in Peace".

Holliday repeats "I'm your huckleberry." prior to the final standoff with Ringo and then said, "Why, Johnny Ringo, you look like somebody just walked over your grave." At this point, I have to go with "I'm just the man for the job." or "I'm just the man you're looking for." as being the most likely meaning, considering that an announcement of "I'll take you to your grave." likely wouldn't be followed up with a declaration that someone just walked over it.

[Mario-Rijo]

Originally Posted by SteelSD

From what I've read, either "I'm just the man for the job." or "I'll take you to your grave." would be reasonable interpretations. But considering that Holliday's next words were "That's just my game.", I'd suggest that "I'm just the man for the job, that's just my game." would likely be the best interpretation as "I'll take you to your grave." probably wouldn't have needed a follow-up after Holliday's prior Latin phrase that can be translated as "Rest in Peace".

Holliday repeats "I'm your huckleberry." prior to the final standoff with Ringo and then said, "Why, Johnny Ringo, you look like somebody just walked over your grave." At this point, I have to go with "I'm just the man for the job." or "I'm just the man you're looking for." as being the most likely meaning, considering that an announcement of "I'll take you to your grave." likely wouldn't be followed up with a declaration that someone just walked over it.

Especially since (and this may not have any bearing but it might) Ringo would have been looking for Wyatt at the time.