For web developers... clients that won't pay.

[acredsfan]

Originally Posted by TRF

got it. Because this was for a friend, i never took that into consideration. the scope of the job should have made me re-think that part of it. I really should take a few business courses. The web stuff I can handle ok. dealing with getting paid, I'm not so good at.

That and I need to stop doing jobs for .org's. They tend to not pay as well.

It definitely seems like it would be beneficial for you to go through some business and contract law and financial and managerial accounting classes. I'm in Finance right now at UC, and let me tell you, they are very beneficial.

You could do things to help get payment faster like adding discounts for paying quickly. Although in your case that might not be worthwhile. Something like 2/10 net 30. That means you expect payment in 30 days, but the 2/10 says that if they pay within 10 days they get a 2% discount. Again, with smaller projects thats not really going to be worth while, but basically the first number is the discount, and the second is the term in days that the discount will be offered.

Written contracts are definitely the way to go. Even though oral contracts are legally binding, they are not usually very easy to back up. If you do continue to do oral contracts, recording the terms and everything would be recommended.

On a side note, you have to be careful with contracts. One real example that my professor showed us was a case where a man made a drunken promise on a napkin to sell his house. It was ruled a legally binding contract because he was coherent enough to write and sign it.

[gonelong]

I demand 25% of estimate before I start coding anything, and this is one of the first things I tell them.

I discuss payment terms upon completion, and I send them an itemized estimate (via email so we both have a record of it) of what they can expect to receive.
1. Registered Domain name (www.blahblah.com)
2. Hosting/Email Setup (gonelong@blahblah.com, etc.)
3. Submission to search engines (yahoo, google, etc.)
4. 9 Pages (Home, About us, etc.)

Total Cost: $1500
25% pre-payment: $375
Due upon completion (net 30): $1125

Hosting billed quarterly @ $25/Month
Additional Development - $50/HR, Image Manipulation - $75 HR

I send this with the message that I will start development upon receiving the 25% payment and an indication that these terms are acceptable.

Not been screwed a single time since I started doing this.

Have also done the 2/10 or Net 30 deal, though mostly the money I make on the side is funny money for me.

I made a deal with the wife that I would do 90% or more of the work after she retired for the evening. Easy deal on smaller projects, but a bit of an issue on larger ones when I basically on have 2-3 hours at night to work on them. I generally don't take projects I suspect will go more than 30-35 hrs or so.

We still get to spend our evenings together and I make some pretty easy disposable income for things like TiVo, a laptop, finished my basement one year, a home theater projector, downpayment on a car, a vacation one year, and the occasional bump to the Roth IRA.

I generally clear from $2000 to $10000 a year doing this, though more often than not its closer to the $2000 figure. I have built up enough clients that I can generally make the $2000 just working with them which is fine by me. I meet one client quarterly because he wants to have beers at BW3's with me. The other clients all interact via email with me. I pretty much take no calls or meetings and work in my PJs while watching TV.

Best. Side-job. Evah.

GL

[redsmetz]

TRF, as an aside, don't forget to set aside some of that money for taxes. At work you're getting taxes withheld, but you'll need to make quarterly payments to the IRS if you're going to owe (you get a bit of a free pass the first year if you've paid in what you're previous year's taxes were; otherwise, you could end up with a penalty). Even now for me, since I incorporated about ten years ago, I have a savings account that I put withholding taxes into each week so they're there when I have to send the tax payment in. If you're self-employed, keep in mind you'll also have to calculate in the Self Employment Tax (Social Security) which is the same as the SS percentage plus the employer match, although half of that amount is deductible off your income (of course, consult a tax adviser).

[TRF]

Originally Posted by gonelong

I demand 25% of estimate before I start coding anything, and this is one of the first things I tell them.

I discuss payment terms upon completion, and I send them an itemized estimate (via email so we both have a record of it) of what they can expect to receive.
1. Registered Domain name (www.blahblah.com)
2. Hosting/Email Setup (gonelong@blahblah.com, etc.)
3. Submission to search engines (yahoo, google, etc.)
4. 9 Pages (Home, About us, etc.)

Total Cost: $1500
25% pre-payment: $375
Due upon completion (net 30): $1125

Hosting billed quarterly @ $25/Month
Additional Development - $50/HR, Image Manipulation - $75 HR

I send this with the message that I will start development upon receiving the 25% payment and an indication that these terms are acceptable.

Not been screwed a single time since I started doing this.

Have also done the 2/10 or Net 30 deal, though mostly the money I make on the side is funny money for me.

I made a deal with the wife that I would do 90% or more of the work after she retired for the evening. Easy deal on smaller projects, but a bit of an issue on larger ones when I basically on have 2-3 hours at night to work on them. I generally don't take projects I suspect will go more than 30-35 hrs or so.

We still get to spend our evenings together and I make some pretty easy disposable income for things like TiVo, a laptop, finished my basement one year, a home theater projector, downpayment on a car, a vacation one year, and the occasional bump to the Roth IRA.

I generally clear from $2000 to $10000 a year doing this, though more often than not its closer to the $2000 figure. I have built up enough clients that I can generally make the $2000 just working with them which is fine by me. I meet one client quarterly because he wants to have beers at BW3's with me. The other clients all interact via email with me. I pretty much take no calls or meetings and work in my PJs while watching TV.

Best. Side-job. Evah.

GL

I'm hoping for about $2000-4000 per month. Like I said, the market here is thin for developers. I was thinking of charging for SEO based on ranking after say 6 weeks. Using agreed upon search terms, $25 for every term on page 3, $50 for page 2, $100 for page 1 with an additional $100 if it is the #1 listing

Originally Posted by redsmetz

TRF, as an aside, don't forget to set aside some of that money for taxes. At work you're getting taxes withheld, but you'll need to make quarterly payments to the IRS if you're going to owe (you get a bit of a free pass the first year if you've paid in what you're previous year's taxes were; otherwise, you could end up with a penalty). Even now for me, since I incorporated about ten years ago, I have a savings account that I put withholding taxes into each week so they're there when I have to send the tax payment in. If you're self-employed, keep in mind you'll also have to calculate in the Self Employment Tax (Social Security) which is the same as the SS percentage plus the employer match, although half of that amount is deductible off your income (of course, consult a tax adviser).

I've worked on the side for a number of years, and the taxes haven't hurt too much, but it is something I have to pay more attention too.

Oh as an update to my current situation, I have sent multiple e-mails to my contact and his boss asking for half now. So far not a single reply. nice.

[TRF]

well, I reached out to my friend, and his response was I should have expected this. I was prepared for that. What came next however caught me off-guard.

Paraphrasing here...

"We'll try to get you paid in the next 20 days, but it could be longer."

Now, this has me a little hacked. This wasn't the easiest application to write. Plus there were a ton of delays on their part. I should have been done in December. I'm to the point of demanding my product back, but I really need this paycheck.

damned frustrating.

[nate]

Originally Posted by TRF

well, I reached out to my friend, and his response was I should have expected this. I was prepared for that. What came next however caught me off-guard.

Paraphrasing here...

"We'll try to get you paid in the next 20 days, but it could be longer."

Now, this has me a little hacked. This wasn't the easiest application to write. Plus there were a ton of delays on their part. I should have been done in December. I'm to the point of demanding my product back, but I really need this paycheck.

damned frustrating.

OK, so if they have a problem with the application you will "try and get it resolved in the next 20 days, but it could be longer."

[pedro]

Originally Posted by nate

OK, so if they have a problem with the application you will "try and get it resolved in the next 20 days, but it could be longer."

yup.

Sorry this is happening to you TRF.

I have my own company and do some web development but mostly client/server stuff and I always try to get as much money up front as I think I can get away with.

Don't be afraid to make people pay for support either or they'll just torture you for ever.

The maxim I always like to use is if you hear my voice, read my words or see my face you better expect to see an invoice shortly after.

[TRF]

my wife's more pissed than me. we have a trip to Dallas next weekend. My 9 year old is going to a ballet convention. This money was supposed to pay for that.

[Ltlabner]

Originally Posted by TRF

my wife's more pissed than me. we have a trip to Dallas next weekend. My 9 year old is going to a ballet convention. This money was supposed to pay for that.

Good luck with this TRF. Sounds like some business classes might be a good investment for the future.

Don't ever be shy about going after the money you've earned. You can't be an ass about it, but you have every right to firmly and professionaly make it clear that you want your money.

I used to be loathe to discuss the price of my products. 13 years ago I'd get all nervous and even lower my voice when discussing price. Now, hell, my products are good, we're helping the customer solve a problem and my technical knowledge is worth every penny of what we are charging.

Like I said, good luck.

[TRF]

Originally Posted by Ltlabner

I used to be loathe to discuss the price of my products. 13 years ago I'd get all nervous and even lower my voice when discussing price. Now, hell, my products are good, we're helping the customer solve a problem and my technical knowledge is worth every penny of what we are charging.

Like I said, good luck.

I'm that way too. I really hate talking money, and sometimes feel ashamed of what I want to charge and end up doing it for a tenth of the price I know I can get. That has to stop. I'm doing a site right now that will be combining what could have been 30 websites into one. I'm charging $150 because it's for a friend, but he didn't explain the broad scope beforehand, so he knows he's getting a deal. I need to stop doing jobs for friends and get actual clients.

[Ltlabner]

Originally Posted by TRF

I really hate talking money, and sometimes feel ashamed of what I want to charge and end up doing it for a tenth of the price I know I can get. That has to stop.

Yea, I understand. You obviously have some tallents or else people wouldn't seek out your services. There's no shame in being compensated for your tallents and effort.

[OldRightHander]

It happens in my line of work too. Since I went independent I have had a couple freight brokers take forever to pay for a load I delivered. I have found that offering a discount in exchange for quicker payment usually works. With me, it's important to get paid fast because one run's pay is the next run's fuel money.

[justincredible]

Where do you guys find these side projects? I wouldn't mind getting into some stuff on the side to start saving for my upcoming first home purchase and wedding.

[pedro]

Originally Posted by justincredible

Where do you guys find these side projects? I wouldn't mind getting into some stuff on the side to start saving for my upcoming first home purchase and wedding.

You might try craigslist

[gonelong]

Originally Posted by justincredible

Where do you guys find these side projects? I wouldn't mind getting into some stuff on the side to start saving for my upcoming first home purchase and wedding.

We put up a our own website, worked to get it ranked well in Google/Yahoo, and let the leads pour in from our site. We had 2-3 sites we had already done so we made a portfolio page out of that.

If you live in a large metro area, this might not work for you. If you live in a smallish midwestern town ... BINGO!

GL