What's Wrong

[PuffyPig]

Originally Posted by WVRedsFan

Bruce, Janish, Griffey, and Phillips swung at most anything that the youngster threw.

Considering Boggs threrw about as many balls as strikes, this is just not accurate.

[redsmetz]

It's interesting what our perception is at times. Just one example, you mentioned that "Weathers and Affeldt can't seem to go a game without allowing a run" and yet, going back and looking at their stats on the team's website, shows that the runs they each gave up were the first runs they've both given up in five games. In his last ten appearances, Weathers has only given up one run in three games. Affeldt had one rotten outing on May 27th, otherwise he's matched Weathers. That sounds like the model of consistancy.

These games happen. I know it's frustrating because this team has played in fits and starts all season long. And like others, I'd like to never see Corey Patterson in a Reds uniform ever again (although he wasn't cause of last night's problems).

But I agree with others that we're looking at the assemblage of a considerably amount of talent. Yes, some of it's streaky and some may not pan out as much as we would hope, but overall, I like the direction of this team.

[bucksfan2]

Originally Posted by WVRedsFan

Is it the players? The manager? The coaches? The ownership?

Tonight, the Reds looked like they were going through the motions. It didn't help that the manager started a rookie at SS and batted him second, but it didn't matter. I've never seen more uninspired at-bats or horrible pitching performances.

Homer was bad. No fastball and nothing else to go along with it. He's a kid, but the opposing pitcher was too and he seemed to pitch a more consistent game. LIncoln looked good, but Weathers and Affeldt can't seem to go a game without allowing a run. In the meantime, the Cardinal relievers pitched 4 innings of 1-hit ball.

Bruce, Janish, Griffey, and Phillips swung at most anything that the youngster threw. Dunn walked twice, and why not? Why give him anything to hit when you can get everyone else out. Votto homered, but little else. Bako is Bako. The insult of insults was Corey Patterson pinch-hitting.

For many, this is a good team, but I disagree. First base has promise, but second base worries me. Phillips is so impatient and streaky, he can't be counted upon. Short is a question mark, and despite Edwin's good hitting night, he as inconsistent as Phillips with less punch.

The outfield is a mish-mash of flawed characters. Dunn is maybe the best player, but is batted so low in the order it's easy to not give him anything to hit. Bruce is a rookie, and despite his fast start (which is now getting less fast as games go on which is to be expected), he is what he is--learning. Junior is still productive, but why pitch to Griffey if you can get Phillips and Edwin out easily enough?

Catcher is just a train wreck. I like Paul Bako as a backup, but why 3 catchers and why two guys who can't hit (really, do you think Valentin is a good hitter?) and the same two are not light out fielders.

I won't go into pitching becaue it shows promise.

It's the same train wreck we've seen for the last 8 years. I really believe it's time to "blow it up" all the way, and I love most of the guys I mentioned above. It's time.

I was going to start a top like this but you beat me to it. I was at the game and the reds were embarasing. There is a huge difference between the reds and the cards and it isn't talent. Here are some of my thoughts.

-The Cards have been relevant for the past decacde and it isn't because their talent was that much better, they play the game the right way. They hustle, they know what they are doing in every situation they get into.

-The Cards worked the count last night. They went up there for every at bat with a purpose. They knew Homer had control problems so they made sure they worked him.

-The reds on the other hand swung at everything. The pitcher had just walked a batter on 5 pitches and went 1-0 on Phillips. Instead of being paitent Phillips swung at the next pitch and grounded out. The only pitch Phillips should have swunt at was one he could drive.

-I give a pass to Bruce, Votto, and Janish last night. Bruce swings with a purpose on every pitch. He is very aggressive but needs to learn a little paitence. Votto is in a similar mold. IMO aside from Dunn Janish had the best atbats last night. These three guys are young and need to play and learn.

-Phillips, EE, and to some extent Dunn swing at so many pitches that they can do nothing with. There is nothing worse than seing Phillips or EE waive or pop up a hitters pitch that they have no business swinging at.

-Do the reds have an idea of what they are trying to do at the plate? Rookie pitcher who put two aboard in the first two innings gives up 2 runs in 5-6 innings. Why didn't Dusty tell one of his hitters to go up there and get the pitcher to throw as many pitches as possible? I am sure that LaRussa told one of his batters to do so.

-Note to Votto watch Pujols play 1B and immitate that. I have never seen a more alert 1B than Pujols. On every put out he makes he is aware is looking to throw behind a runner if the runner lapses. Bruce darn near got his pocket picked by Pujols.

-Is it time to move EE? The guy just can't seem to make the routine play. His error lead to an extended inning which gave up 4 runs. Homer won't tell you this but I am sure it effected him. He is 22 years old stuff like this will effect him. When Edwin isn't hitting, which has been this entire year, he doesn't deserve a spot on the field.

-PLAY THE GAME THE RIGHT WAY AND PLAY HARD. Thats is all I ask.

[Ltlabner]

Wasn't this question answered about 5 "what's wrong" threads ago?

[Heath]

Originally Posted by bucksfan2

-PLAY THE GAME THE RIGHT WAY AND PLAY HARD. Thats is all I ask.

Well, how do you define "the right way"? It's not like they all ran to third base first and the shortstop isn't over picking daisies in right field. Technically, they had three outs every inning, and they hit and fielded nine innings.

And what quantitative measure can you use to "play hard".

There's 162 games a year. The best anyone's done is 118 wins a year. Whether or not lackluster performances are due to travel constraints and just overall blahness, it's hard to understand those statements.

[lollipopcurve]

Welsh made a point last night, in comparing the Cards and Reds, that I agree with 100%. The Cards have had continuity -- with the exception of Jocketty leaving there last year, the ownership/FO/field staff has been comprised of most of the same people for a long time now. When you have that kind consistency -- and the people are competent -- it allows you to make sensible plans and follow through, instruct with consistency, build trust, etc. Minnesota is another example of an organization that has had a good track record of continuity.

The Reds, well... they may be the most turbulent, discontinuous organization over the last decade in all of major league baseball. My sense is that we may have suffered the major earthquake (the ownership changes), but that the aftershocks may not be over yet (I don't know if Baker will be here beyond his 3-year contract, and I doubt Jocketty really wants to be a GM at this stage of his career). Still, a solid young core of players -- pitchers and position players -- is here to build on, and that hasn't been the case for a long time.

[bucksfan2]

Originally Posted by Heath

Well, how do you define "the right way"? It's not like they all ran to third base first and the shortstop isn't over picking daisies in right field. Technically, they had three outs every inning, and they hit and fielded nine innings.

And what quantitative measure can you use to "play hard".

There's 162 games a year. The best anyone's done is 118 wins a year. Whether or not lackluster performances are due to travel constraints and just overall blahness, it's hard to understand those statements.

There is no number or stat you can put behind "playing hard" but if you were at last nights game you could tell a huge difference between the two teams on the field.

Is it really too much to ask to adapt to each situation you are put into. The Reds faced a rookie pitcher who had control problems. To every baseball fan that means they need to be paitent at the plate. They need to work the counts. What did the Reds do? They were aggressive. They were swinging for the fences. They were swinging at bad pitches. They did everything they could to let the pitcher off the hook. "Playing Hard" means making routine plays Edwin!

Maybe there isn't a quantative way to measure this. However it seems like the Cards always play the game the right way. The talent difference hasn't been all that much between the Reds and Cards over the past decade but the Cards have won a WS and have been contenders year in year out and the Reds, well they are still looking for their first winning season since 2000.

[jojo]

Originally Posted by Heath

Well, how do you define "the right way"? It's not like they all ran to third base first and the shortstop isn't over picking daisies in right field. Technically, they had three outs every inning, and they hit and fielded nine innings.

And what quantitative measure can you use to "play hard".

There's 162 games a year. The best anyone's done is 118 wins a year. Whether or not lackluster performances are due to travel constraints and just overall blahness, it's hard to understand those statements.

I think it's subjective but I will add this-fans who follow a winning team seem to generally think their team plays hard.

Managers of losing teams (especially those on the hot seat) tend to be convinced their guys are playing their butt's off and it's an injustice that it's not translating.

Lee Elia has suggested that Cubs fans are unqualified to define what working hard means.

[redsmetz]

Originally Posted by bucksfan2

Is it time to move EE? The guy just can't seem to make the routine play. His error lead to an extended inning which gave up 4 runs. Homer won't tell you this but I am sure it effected him. He is 22 years old stuff like this will effect him. When Edwin isn't hitting, which has been this entire year, he doesn't deserve a spot on the field.

-PLAY THE GAME THE RIGHT WAY AND PLAY HARD. Thats is all I ask.

Thing is, Edwin didn't have an error last night. It was ruled a caught ball, batter out and the runner returned safely to second when Encarnacion dropped the ball in his transfer. Head's up call by the 2nd base umpire.

Now, it's very unfortunate that it happened because we had the base runner dead on that one, ending the inning. Homer has no one but himself to blame for having two outs and failing to get anyone out without letting up any runs. How do you hang that on EE?

One thing I saw from Bailey that I liked very much was him making a point of thanking Janish and Phillips for their double play.

Personally, while frustrating, I chalk it up as just one of those games. I'd like to reduce that number, but they do happen.

[flyer85]

Originally Posted by jojo

Lee Elia has suggested that Cubs fans are unqualified to define what working hard means.

He might have had a point about those Cubs fans that were always there in the days before night baseball at Wrigley. One of the great tirades in all of sports.

[westofyou]

Thing is, Edwin didn't have an error last night. It was ruled a caught ball, batter out and the runner returned safely to second when Encarnacion dropped the ball in his transfer

Mmmmmmmmm facts....... yummy.

[Kc61]

Originally Posted by lollipopcurve

Welsh made a point last night, in comparing the Cards and Reds, that I agree with 100%. The Cards have had continuity -- with the exception of Jocketty leaving there last year, the ownership/FO/field staff has been comprised of most of the same people for a long time now. When you have that kind consistency -- and the people are competent -- it allows you to make sensible plans and follow through, instruct with consistency, build trust, etc. Minnesota is another example of an organization that has had a good track record of continuity.

The Reds, well... they may be the most turbulent, discontinuous organization over the last decade in all of major league baseball. My sense is that we may have suffered the major earthquake (the ownership changes), but that the aftershocks may not be over yet (I don't know if Baker will be here beyond his 3-year contract, and I doubt Jocketty really wants to be a GM at this stage of his career). Still, a solid young core of players -- pitchers and position players -- is here to build on, and that hasn't been the case for a long time.

I heard that comment about continuity and disagree with it. Look at the Cards lineup, it's a very different one than in past years, so is it's pitching staff. Not a lot of continuity. Plus, the GM just left. Yes, the field boss is the same. Look at the Boston Celtics, basically a whole new team this year, little continuity, playing for a championship. I don't think the Cards and Reds differ because of continuity. In sports today, teams change often.

The difference I see is that all the Cards players seem ready to contribute as major leaguers now, either as stars or as role players. Somebody yesterday wisely posted that the Cards are full of "scrappy" players; if they were Reds we'd be joking about those guys. But they are ready to contribute now either as main players/pitchers or filling a role.

The Reds would be a better offensive team with "scrappy" Hairston and Keppinger (if healthy) both in the lineup batting one and two with a veteran .500 pitcher as the fifth starter.

The Reds team uses major league games for on the job training, which is ok as long as the player is worth the pain. Cueto seems to be, Volquez surely is. Is EE? Is Bailey at this stage? Is Votto? In Votto's case, yes for sure, but he's still learning defensively and that affects games.

And the Reds also use some players/pitchers whose best years are well behind them. The Cards let go of Jim Edmunds, would the Reds have done so?

The difference I see is that the Cards guys, every year, seem almost uniformly to be sound, major league players either stars or helpers, ready to contribute now.

[Mario-Rijo]

Originally Posted by bucksfan2

There is no number or stat you can put behind "playing hard" but if you were at last nights game you could tell a huge difference between the two teams on the field.

Is it really too much to ask to adapt to each situation you are put into. The Reds faced a rookie pitcher who had control problems. To every baseball fan that means they need to be paitent at the plate. They need to work the counts. What did the Reds do? They were aggressive. They were swinging for the fences. They were swinging at bad pitches. They did everything they could to let the pitcher off the hook. "Playing Hard" means making routine plays Edwin!

Maybe there isn't a quantative way to measure this. However it seems like the Cards always play the game the right way. The talent difference hasn't been all that much between the Reds and Cards over the past decade but the Cards have won a WS and have been contenders year in year out and the Reds, well they are still looking for their first winning season since 2000.

Every time the Cards come to town I think of 2 things. #1.) How they will leave town with at least 2 more wins than they showed up with. And #2) How they must be in their locker room laughing at us and saying "man the Pirates are more fundamentally sound, too bad for them they have a ton of talent".

[flyer85]

Originally Posted by Kc61

with a veteran .500 pitcher as the fifth starter.

Josh Fogg, where are you?

[Kc61]

Originally Posted by flyer85

Josh Fogg, where are you?

I actually believe Josh will be back for another try. Not saying I was thinking Fogg when I asked for a veteran .500 pitcher. Isn't Sabathia about .500?