What's Wrong

[flyer85]

Originally Posted by Kc61

I actually believe Josh will be back for another try.

I do as well. He certainly isn't a reliever.

[Chip R]

Originally Posted by jojo

I think it's subjective but I will add this-fans who follow a winning team seem to generally think their team plays hard.

Managers of losing teams (especially those on the hot seat) tend to be convinced their guys are playing their butt's off and it's an injustice that it's not translating.

Great point. And I would add that fans of a losing team seem to exaggerate their faults. Nothing seemed wrong with the effort and the performance during the last homestand. As I told REDREAD in another thread, when the team is winning, everything seems better. The players are smarter and more talented, the manager makes better moves, the beer is colder and tastes better and seems like more of a bargain. Ticket prices seem to be more affordable and your seat at the ballpark is better.

[IslandRed]

Originally Posted by jojo

I don't think anything is wrong. Going into the season the Reds roster looked like .500 talent that was roughly 9 games worse than the Cubs. In other words, they needed everything to go right for them to be serious contenders (with a little help from their friends too). Their April pretty much shot down their chances to contend barring injury to the front runners and as a whole they've gotten everything to go right with some guys and not so much with other guys.

Basically, they're about where they should be I think.

The Reds may not be a mover and shaker this year but I think they will provide us with some fun baseball to watch. Ultimately they might not even have a winning season but, frankly, I've found them to be much, much, more compelling this season with legitimate reason to hope for improvement next year.

That's about how I feel about it also. We've actually played slightly above .500 ball the last six weeks, and now we have Jay Bruce to watch. I'm not thinking playoffs or anything, mind you. But I actually like the club's long-term prospects more today than I did in spring training.

[paulrichjr]

This team is much better than they were the last 3 years. The problem they have is that the division is much better. It took a .500 record to almost win the division very recently. Now that the Reds are close to playing .500 ball it will take much more than that to win. I guess it is that time of year again...Talking about who to trade at the deadline instead of who to obtain - Oh what fun.

[RedsManRick]

At the risk of over simplifying... Dusty Baker. If you watched his tenure in Chicago, this season should look (and sound) VERY familiar.

[edabbs44]

What's wrong? The team isn't very good.

When Bob and Wayne came to town they should have realized that Rome wasn't built in a day and proceeded as such, instead of wasting money and resources in pretending like they had a shot at legitimately competing. They would be in year 3 of the rebuilding plan with similar past results while being better positioned for the future.

The biggest problem is the unreasonable expectations. Temper your expectations and they look better.

[redsmetz]

Originally Posted by RedsManRick

At the risk of over simplifying... Dusty Baker. If you watched his tenure in Chicago, this season should look (and sound) VERY familiar.

Hmmm, on this date in his first year in Chicago, the Cubs were tied for 1st place in the Central Division on their way to winning the division title. I'd take that presently.

[westofyou]

Originally Posted by redsmetz

Hmmm, on this date in his first year in Chicago, the Cubs were tied for 1st place in the Central Division on their way to winning the division title. I'd take that presently.

I hear he lived on the coast before that...

[redsmetz]

Originally Posted by edabbs44

What's wrong? The team isn't very good.

When Bob and Wayne came to town they should have realized that Rome wasn't built in a day and proceeded as such, instead of wasting money and resources in pretending like they had a shot at legitimately competing. They would be in year 3 of the rebuilding plan with similar past results while being better positioned for the future.

The biggest problem is the unreasonable expectations. Temper your expectations and they look better.

But the way I've seen, it were ARE in year three of rebuilding and have a heckuva foundation down. They've had to put a team on the field. The moves haven't been perfect, but the organization has advanced from where they were when C took over.

[redsmetz]

Originally Posted by westofyou

I hear he lived on the coast before that...

Funny thing you should mention that, but I was looking up his first year in SF while you were typing this. On this date in 1993, the Giants were in 1st place in the Western Division on their way to finishing 2nd to Atlanta with 103 wins (the second best record in ML baseball with nothing to show for it).

[Spring~Fields]

Originally Posted by Kc61

I agree that coming off a long road trip and playing the next night may have had an impact.

The team is definitely in transition and there will be rough spots. Still, you have to like the young talent and Jocketty hasn't really begun to make important changes.

Originally Posted by jojo

What's wrong?
I don't think anything is wrong.
The Reds may not be a mover and shaker this year but I think they will provide us with some fun baseball to watch. Ultimately they might not even have a winning season but, frankly, I've found them to be much, much, more compelling this season with legitimate reason to hope for improvement next year.

Originally Posted by redsmetz

It's interesting what our perception is at times
These games happen. I know it's frustrating because this team has played in fits and starts all season long. And like others, I'd like to never see Corey Patterson in a Reds uniform ever again (although he wasn't cause of last night's problems).

But I agree with others that we're looking at the assemblage of a considerably amount of talent. Yes, some of it's streaky and some may not pan out as much as we would hope, but overall, I like the direction of this team.

Originally Posted by Kc61

The difference I see is that all the Cards players seem ready to contribute as major leaguers now, either as stars or as role players. Somebody yesterday wisely posted that the Cards are full of "scrappy" players; if they were Reds we'd be joking about those guys. But they are ready to contribute now either as main players/pitchers or filling a role.

The Reds would be a better offensive team with "scrappy" Hairston and Keppinger (if healthy) both in the lineup batting one and two with a veteran .500 pitcher as the fifth starter.

The Reds team uses major league games for on the job training, which is ok as long as the player is worth the pain. Cueto seems to be, Volquez surely is. Is EE? Is Bailey at this stage? Is Votto? In Votto's case, yes for sure, but he's still learning defensively and that affects games.

And the Reds also use some players/pitchers whose best years are well behind them. The Cards let go of Jim Edmunds, would the Reds have done so?

The difference I see is that the Cards guys, every year, seem almost uniformly to be sound, major league players either stars or helpers, ready to contribute now.

These are the positive and constructive occurrences with the Reds that we see and appreciate that are in existence and have become a sign that the team is moving forward and should continue too with Jocketty making better choices, decisions, adjustments and adaptations on top of the foundation that has been given to his trust.

The two sided vision from one to the other exposed by the fans have a coexistence and is to be expected. One the growth and promising development of a very good team in the making, the other residue from the old and defeated that has yet to be dealt with but is in the works to be renovated with future upgrades when timing has opened, lent itself for Jocketty to do so.

In the meantime the management, coaches and players need to be seen doing what has been empowered in them to do, they should be making the adjustments and corrections that are within their abilities and powers to do now forward until Jocketty can have the opportunity to make the necessary changes to take the team above and beyond inconsistencies that lead to, simply put, that have led them to losing more games than they win
.
How one appreciates and views Dunn, Volquez, Harang, Votto, Bruce, Cueto, Phillips and Keppinger is as real and valid as how one, who passionately questions how long are they, the Reds, willing to accept on the job training from a Belisle, Bailey, Encarncion, Coffey, and when can one expect the Reds to distance themselves from that which needs to be extracted from the mediocrity or below as routinely witnessed from an underachieving group such as Fogg, Patterson, Ross, Valentin, Bako, Freel, Hopper, and Majewski remodeling the memory of seven long years of their predecessors.

There are two very distinct sides to this team, both of which are a part that makes it presence known. Two that are in conflict with achieving the goals of a better team. The more weightier being that part which concludes with results that are stated within the win, loss column becoming a continuous history. One group of fans rightly believes that the scales need to be tipped in the favor of win, the other side rightly expresses a desire and belief that the scales are being tipped in the favor of win. How can we not agree with both and naturally we will be seen at various times voicing both sides at a time, one is the sour, one is the sweet and we believe that the sour will be dealt with, it is just that some of us believe that even though there are some things that the Reds cannot do anything about at this time, that the Reds need to be doing now, what they can do.

The Reds surely run both hot and cold in their present state as the quote below perceives within their fans who follow them in response to their journey on the playing field.

Originally Posted by Chip R

“I would add that fans of a losing team seem to exaggerate their faults. Nothing seemed wrong with the effort and the performance during the last homestand.” “when the team is winning, everything seems better. The players are smarter and more talented, the manager makes better moves, the beer is colder and tastes better and seems like more of a bargain. Ticket prices seem to be more affordable and your seat at the ballpark is better.”

Nothing was wrong with the results that the performance brought with the last home stand, sometimes the competitors and opposition are more compliant than others.

It’s just that some days

Sometimes the beer runs cold. Sometimes the beer runs warm.

Sometimes the ticket prices are affordable, sometimes the ticket prices are not.

Sometimes the players are smarter and more talented, some days they are not.

Sometimes the manager gets out of the way, some days that manager gets in the way.

Originally Posted by edabbs44

What's wrong? The team isn't very good.

The bottom line.

[REDREAD]

Originally Posted by WVRedsFan

The insult of insults was Corey Patterson pinch-hitting.

Who else was left? I didn't follow the game in great detail, as it was just background noise, but didn't Patterson PH in the 9th, when the game was pretty much lost anyhow? I mean, the win expectancy was pretty low at that point. If Valentine hadn't been used yet (I don't know) the outcome was unlikely to be different..

Homer lost the game, IMO. Things like Janish batting #2 and Patterson making one of the last outs of the game are minor in comparison.

[edabbs44]

Originally Posted by redsmetz

But the way I've seen, it were ARE in year three of rebuilding and have a heckuva foundation down. They've had to put a team on the field. The moves haven't been perfect, but the organization has advanced from where they were when C took over.

I agree with that, but I just think that the team would have been even further along. They would probably have more prospects in the system and greater payroll flexibility if they didn't try and compete while trying to rebuild.

While the future looks brighter than it has in a while, it would look even more favorable if they came to grips with the situation a bit earlier.

[REDREAD]

Originally Posted by edabbs44

I agree with that, but I just think that the team would have been even further along. They would probably have more prospects in the system and greater payroll flexibility if they didn't try and compete while trying to rebuild..

They could've made better decisions about the FAs they signed as well.
Like signing Bradford instead of Stanton. If nothing else, that would've made the rebuilding more tolerable to endure. It would've also given them more trade flexiblity.

While we have some young talent at the ML level, we aren't very deep. With 13 pending FAs (I think that's right), there's going to be a lot of holes to fill this winter. We don't exactly have any surplus talent to trade either (that other teams want).

[westofyou]

Like signing Bradford instead of Stanton.

One was LH (Stanton), and one was RH (Bradford) and Todd Coffey and Weathers had that slot, as well as a hope that Majewski could rebound.

While signing Stanton was not the right choice the comparison doesn't work, they throw with different arms and that's the reason they never pursued Bradford and why they signed Stanton.