What's Wrong

[MWM]

bucksfan, you're complicating things. When a team has been as bad as the Reds for as many years as the Reds, it's not about "clubhouse leadership." It's about talent, plain and simple. No amount of fiery clubhouse guys is going to change the fact that the roster just isn't that good.

[bucksfan2]

Originally Posted by MWM

bucksfan, you're complicating things. When a team has been as bad as the Reds for as many years as the Reds, it's not about "clubhouse leadership." It's about talent, plain and simple. No amount of fiery clubhouse guys is going to change the fact that the roster just isn't that good.

I don't think I am complicating things. I don't think the talent is all that different from the Reds and Cards or the Reds and Marlins or the Reds and anyone with the exceptoin of maybe Philly and Chicago.

Here is what has happened in 3 of the past 4 games. They Reds have been shut down by a rookie pitcher called up from AA, a rookie pitcher with control problems, and Braden Looper a pitcher who gives up more hits than innings pitched. In each game it seemed like the entire team went up to the plate without an approach. The approach they had was see the ball hit the ball. Conversly look at what the Cards did to Bailey. They worked the count. They made him throw pitches, the Reds swung aimlessly at Boggs.

We have seen this same horriable baseball no for about 7 straight years. Seen players go out there looking like they didn't care and if they had a game plan they didn't execute. Yet when the red go into these swoons you don't hear a single player take accountability. You don't hear the leaders come out and say the way we are playing is unacceptable. You don't hear anything all you see is the same players taking the field every day and playing the same lackluster baseball.

[REDREAD]

Originally Posted by Will M

league team has a lot of holes. imo the reds would be served to really rebuild. keep the youth plus harang ( unless overwhelmed ) and trade off the other vets.

The problem is that there's not a whole lot of marketable vets to trade.

Dunn and Jr have no trade issues.

Arroyo could probably be traded (although he's probably back on the keeper list).

Who else? EdE perhaps (although he's young).

The team is so thin that they really don't have a surplus to trade, other than some pitching prospects in the minors.

My guess is that there's going to be some teeth gnashing when Walt decides to remold this team, because there's no excess Wily Mos to trade. Whoever Walt trades is going to cause another hole (other than pitching prospects, but folks will probably be up in arms about that too).

[HokieRed]

If Valaika can hit and play 2b, I'd strongly consider trading Phillips. I'd also have no hesitation in trading Arroyo, EE, Keppinger, and, in the right deals, Harang, Votto, and Bailey. Only Volquez, Cueto, and Bruce would be on an untouchable list.

[wheels]

Originally Posted by Stormy

This team is youthful, but there is plenty of talent present. They need some patience, proper utilization, proper development, and for the right acquisitions and subtractions to be made in building a more coherent roster between now and 2009. Do we have the right owner, GM, or coaching staff to provide any of those qualities?

The only one I have any faith in is Walt, but even he seems better suited for a different manner of General Management. Given the way this team is playing, he might need to start making some major moves sooner rather than later.

I dig what you're saying, but weren't those Oakland clubs of the 80's and 90's built under Alderson/Jocketty? Those A's teams were always pretty good at restocking the shelves even before Beane took over (he had to learn somewhere, right?), and it really didn't seem like it was done with just veteran accquisitions.

I also don't think the Cards were any great shakes in '96 (?) when Jocketty took over. Unless my memory fails me (and it DOES), that Cardinal franchise was kinda bad for a few years prior to Jocketty's arrival (once again, the nineties are kind of a lost decade for me in the memory department if you catch my drift).

Point is, I really think Jocketty IS the guy, and the notion that he's not adept at rebuilding, or bringing a young group along might be a product of a different situation with a different salary structure and parameters. Simply put, I think he can adapt to pretty much any situation, and he's got an owner that's comfortable with him. I think it's gonna work.

.....But that manager and that pitching coach are huge problem.

[Chip R]

Originally Posted by HokieRed

Re my earlier posts regarding Guillen and Hamilton: the message seems to be that if you're the best player on the Reds what you can clearly expect is to be traded. Is that it? Does that sound like a formula for winning?

Neither one were the best players on their teams at the time they were traded.

[westofyou]

Originally Posted by Chip R

Neither one were the best players on their teams at the time they were traded.

Jose Guillen... we miss you and your .308 OB% (career .325)

[MWM]

Originally Posted by bucksfan2

I don't think I am complicating things. I don't think the talent is all that different from the Reds and Cards or the Reds and Marlins or the Reds and anyone with the exceptoin of maybe Philly and Chicago.

Here is what has happened in 3 of the past 4 games. They Reds have been shut down by a rookie pitcher called up from AA, a rookie pitcher with control problems, and Braden Looper a pitcher who gives up more hits than innings pitched. In each game it seemed like the entire team went up to the plate without an approach. The approach they had was see the ball hit the ball. Conversly look at what the Cards did to Bailey. They worked the count. They made him throw pitches, the Reds swung aimlessly at Boggs.

We have seen this same horriable baseball no for about 7 straight years. Seen players go out there looking like they didn't care and if they had a game plan they didn't execute. Yet when the red go into these swoons you don't hear a single player take accountability. You don't hear the leaders come out and say the way we are playing is unacceptable. You don't hear anything all you see is the same players taking the field every day and playing the same lackluster baseball.

Nah, it's the talent. It's that simple.

[wheels]

Originally Posted by bucksfan2

I don't think I am complicating things. I don't think the talent is all that different from the Reds and Cards or the Reds and Marlins or the Reds and anyone with the exceptoin of maybe Philly and Chicago.

Here is what has happened in 3 of the past 4 games. They Reds have been shut down by a rookie pitcher called up from AA, a rookie pitcher with control problems, and Braden Looper a pitcher who gives up more hits than innings pitched. In each game it seemed like the entire team went up to the plate without an approach. The approach they had was see the ball hit the ball. Conversly look at what the Cards did to Bailey. They worked the count. They made him throw pitches, the Reds swung aimlessly at Boggs.

We have seen this same horriable baseball no for about 7 straight years. Seen players go out there looking like they didn't care and if they had a game plan they didn't execute. Yet when the red go into these swoons you don't hear a single player take accountability. You don't hear the leaders come out and say the way we are playing is unacceptable. You don't hear anything all you see is the same players taking the field every day and playing the same lackluster baseball.

C'mon. What do you want guys to do when they make outs and give up runs?

Do you want Paul O'neill-esque temper tantrums every single time?

We are fans. We watch the game when it's convenient as an escape from our every day grind. These guys do this every single game while failing a lion's share of the time. How can you expect them to be so angry at something happens so often? Baseball is a game of failure, and dealing with that failure is part of being successful. I'd be more put off if they were a team of boorish hot heads like Rob Dibble.

[westofyou]

Do you want Paul O'neill-esque temper tantrums every single time?

In Knothole there was a kid from Indian Hill that would pound the bat on his helmet (while it was on) after he struck out.

He never improved because of that act... and always looked foolish whilst doing it as well.

[MWM]

Originally Posted by westofyou

In Knothole there was a kid from Indian Hill that would pound the bat on his helmet (while it was on) after he struck out.

He never improved because of that act... and always looked foolish whilst doing it as well.

But did he focus that anger towards winning?

[M2]

All sorts of things are wrong with the Reds. For instance, the team is still way too thin on players who can hit and defend. The defense has improved, fairly significantly, since Jeff Keppinger got injured, but the offense could use his bat. Not hitting Adam Dunn and Joey Votto higher was, is and unfortunately will continue to be dumb management.

Some of what ails the Reds is the team is still discovering itself. This club has more talent than previous versions, but the gaps in that talent have caused acute pain and clearly the talent on hand hasn't found a way to combine for winning baseball.

Not getting more from Harang and Arroyo is really killing the team (obviously Arroyo is the greater pain point).

[*BaseClogger*]

Originally Posted by HokieRed

If Valaika can hit and play 2b, I'd strongly consider trading Phillips. I'd also have no hesitation in trading Arroyo, EE, Keppinger, and, in the right deals, Harang, Votto, and Bailey. Only Volquez, Cueto, and Bruce would be on an untouchable list.

Trading the overrated Phillips could open a spot for Keppinger as well if Valaika doesn't pan out. Now might be a great time to move him for pieces that could help fill the team's holes (CF, C, SS, arms)...

[oregonred]

Originally Posted by M2

Not getting more from Harang and Arroyo is really killing the team (obviously Arroyo is the greater pain point).

Bingo. More Arroyo then Harang, although we seem to lose everytime Harang starts. If we were getting 2006-2007 numbers from our two veteran anchors, the team is almost certainly .500 or better. Add in KGJ's anemic power production and lack of range in RF and we find its the well paid veterans that are more inconsistent and underperforiming vs. the young kids.

[RichRed]

Originally Posted by SteelSD

What's wrong? The pitching and the Manager. This hasn't somehow changed from the beginning of the season.

I just caught a glimpse of tonight's lineup on Fay's blog. Let's just say it's Dustastic.