The Reds can't offer a long-term contract to a player that is hitting .229 in June!

[BLEEDS]

Yeah, pick ONE MONTH where the most productive Offensive guy is toughing it out, "playing hurt" as has been reported, and use that as an argument.

What a joke.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

[BLEEDS]

Originally Posted by Oxilon

I know this won't be happening necessarily next season, but resigning key coponents to our future long term success must be addressed. Affordable yet relatively lengthy LTC should be handed out to Bruce, Votto, Volquez, and Cueto in the upcoming two years (ala the Indians of the 90's). Tying up $15MM a season to Dunn for the next 5 years won't allow us to do so, which would be a horrible mistake.

:deadhorse

:lindner::obrien:







PEACE

- BLEEDS

[Slyder]

Originally Posted by Fullboat

There is always a danger of a bad trade(Robinson for Pappas was the
worst of all)but you have to take a chance.Dunn is not helping the Reds
right now(and believe me he is the least of there problems)and he is
an established talent that we can get something for him and his 13mill can be used elsewhere like pitching.

For what 2 Eric Milton's? The pitching market MOST years is barren unless you want to throw more than Dunn money at. With Harang and the Kids we shouldnt be that worried about the rotation. Granted you can never have enough pitching. Dunn type money shouldnt be needed to fix the flaws in the pen and on the bench just smarter investments.

If Cast is being honest about opening the checkbook there should be 0 problems resigning Dunn and growing the finances for the team. Just find someone who manages to get his best bats up the most rather than plays to keep LH Specialist from being effective for 1 inning and costing the team outs, "Respect", and I think you'd see a pretty good response from this young team.

[BurgervilleBuck]

Originally Posted by Hondo

Also, Griffey won't be eating 8.3 Million, so his Salary is off the Books...

Griffey won't be off the books until 2024.

[BLEEDS]

Originally Posted by BurgervilleBuck

Griffey won't be off the books until 2024.

Incorrect. He will no longer be on the Payroll. His Deferred money was considered as part of his annual salary.

00-08:$12.5M/year, 09:$16.5M club option ($4M buyout)
$57.5M in salary deferred at 4% interest, to be paid 2009-2024, reducing contract's present-day value at time of signing to between $9.2M and $9.3M annually, according to Reds management sources
$5.5M of 2000 salary deferred
$6.5M/year of 2001-2008 salaries deferred
signed 2/2000, replacing final year of previous contract

That bolded part is what they "book" for salary as far as payroll is concerned.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

[durl]

I don't think I follow. If money is deferred but accounted for in the annual salary, wouldn't that mean that the annual salary would be increased rather than lowered?

I'm not well versed in the finer details of MLB contracts...which are only a tad simpler than the IRS tax codes...

[BLEEDS]

Originally Posted by durl

I don't think I follow. If money is deferred but accounted for in the annual salary, wouldn't that mean that the annual salary would be increased rather than lowered?

I'm not well versed in the finer details of MLB contracts...which are only a tad simpler than the IRS tax codes...

His CONTRACT reads as $12.5M per year.
In 2001 to 2008, $6.5M is Deferred.
That leaves $6.0M.
However, they calculate a cost of the deferred money in today's dollars.
That increases the value of the annual salary that they budget for in the payroll.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

[LouisvilleCARDS]

I know OBP and SLUG and all that is the popular way of doing things and it makes SENSE that walks should be included in the stats since it's essentially a single, so call me old school, but I think batting average is becoming an overlooked indicator nowadays to all the stats out there.

How can you tell how many of Dunn's walks were due to just pitchers pitching around him? What's the percentage of those walks that he scored a run on versus those he scored a run on with a hit? It's a big difference getting on base by hit than by walk if the pitcher is just pitching around the guy because he thinks its pretty meaningless. Or the opposing pitcher could jsut be throwing wild and walknig several guys. Who knows? Not that OBP isn't a good indicator and its important that guys get a walk, but it really doesn't put in context how or why the walk was issued. Putting the bat on the ball and getting a hit is pretty much a standard plus for your team no matter what you do. So, in other words, when a pitcher pitches strikes or Dunn swings the bat, Adam Dunn gets on base about 1/4th of the time.

I think something needs to be said about the fact we've essentially only had ONE full time player batting over .300 at one time - be it Keppinger or Hairston - and right now our best hitter for average that is healthy is Votto at .275. Bruce has been doing well but hasn't played only a couple weeks. Then you go look at the league leading club in the Cubs and they have a TON of guys up there around .290-.300. I remember a few weeks ago I was counting their lineup that played and they had SEVEN guys in their lineup batting .300. Right now I count NINE players with significant playing time that are above .280 in average. And even then, literally Soriano is at about .283, the rest are basically .290 or above. We have had NO HEALTHY FULL TIME PLAYERS that are on that level and they have EIGHT.

That should sum up the difference right there. OBP and SLUG and all that is nice and all, but there is something more fearful when you go up against a lineup where basically any guy can put the bat on the ballat any time on you because they're running out .290 batters at every spot in the lineup. Our 1999 team was a lot like that too if anyone remembers. We really need to change the makeup of the team and get more guys who can put the bat on the ball on the squad.

[BLEEDS]

Originally Posted by LouisvilleCARDS

I know OBP and SLUG and all that is the popular way of doing things and it makes SENSE that walks should be included in the stats since it's essentially a single, so call me old school, but I think batting average is becoming an overlooked indicator nowadays to all the stats out there.

As it should be.

You can say the same thing about hits - when did they occur, with noone on base, in the 8th inning of a blow-out, etc, etc, etc... that's why you look at Stats over a LARGE sample size to determine their Significance, and stop yourself from making ridiculous statements, such as, oh I don't know, "we can't sign this guy to a LTC because of how he's batting in June"...

PEACE

-BLEEDS

[Ahhhorsepoo]

Originally Posted by durl

How many runs does he give up each season with his 8 errors per season average over the past 6 years or so? And what is the scoring impact on the W/L record over 162 games with those 8 errors?

I mean, if we're going to give up one of the top RBI, HR, and Runs Scored men in all of baseball over the past 4-5 years, I would think that 8 errors a year isn't much of a justification. We should accurately quantify how many runs he allows versus what he scores. A large chunk of offense is at stake.

Just because he doesnt get an error doesnt mean he doesnt cost runs.. last night when he dove for the ball he should have either A) taken a better line or B) laid up and got the ball off the bounce.. then he would have saved that run..

then later he gave up another run when he took a terrible angle it went past him and got to the wall, russel martin should have scored but he fell down rounding 3rd.. and then on the play down the line.. he jogged to it, and then took a while to throw it and made the play at home way closer than it should have been.. i know bako dropped the ball but had dunn had any notion of getting it quick and getting it in the runner either would have been out by 4 or 5 steps or held at third..

by no means am i saying he caused all 3 runs.. but playing those 3 balls better he could have at least saved a run, maybe 2.. no erros, but still potentially made the game out of reach by his lack of good defense..

he did do one think well last night.. he is actually trying to go with the pitch including oppage.. which is something he has never done..

[bounty37h]

Originally Posted by 44Magnum

Not to mention that he gives up numerous run per year with his horrible defense!

The Reds must let Dunn walk or trade him this year. How can anyone believe he deserves a mega-deal?

What about the same player hitting .152 for June now??

[durl]

Originally Posted by Ahhhorsepoo

Just because he doesnt get an error doesnt mean he doesnt cost runs.. last night when he dove for the ball he should have either A) taken a better line or B) laid up and got the ball off the bounce.. then he would have saved that run..

then later he gave up another run when he took a terrible angle it went past him and got to the wall, russel martin should have scored but he fell down rounding 3rd.. and then on the play down the line.. he jogged to it, and then took a while to throw it and made the play at home way closer than it should have been.. i know bako dropped the ball but had dunn had any notion of getting it quick and getting it in the runner either would have been out by 4 or 5 steps or held at third..

by no means am i saying he caused all 3 runs.. but playing those 3 balls better he could have at least saved a run, maybe 2.. no erros, but still potentially made the game out of reach by his lack of good defense..

he did do one think well last night.. he is actually trying to go with the pitch including oppage.. which is something he has never done..

Good points. Still, those plays by Dunn didn't cost the Reds the game. They only needed to score 3 runs which should not be an unsurmountable task for an MLB team playing at home.

[Ahhhorsepoo]

Originally Posted by durl

Good points. Still, those plays by Dunn didn't cost the Reds the game. They only needed to score 3 runs which should not be an unsurmountable task for an MLB team playing at home.

I agree.. but just was pointing out a few examples of not getting an error but still costing runs..

I dont understand how a major league ball club can have 6 strikeouts while watching.. not even an attempt to swing.. that is inexcusable..

btw his average for june is down to .132...
and he only has 2 non homerun hits.. 6 hits 4 of which were homers..

[durl]

If we're dumping players because of their poor BA in June, the entire team would be cut.