MLB historical depth chart

[OnBaseMachine]

As a spinoff from the Reds historical three deep depth chart I posted a few days ago, I thought it would be fun to try and do one for all of major league baseball dating back to the beginning of baseball history. This will be harder to do than just picking for one team so I'm going to expand it to five deep. I'll go ahead and post this now and make my list later on.

Here's a link to the Reds historical depth chart thread

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69743

[OnBaseMachine]

Catcher

Josh Gibson
Johnny Bench
Yogi Berra
Carlton Fisk
Bill Dickey

First Base

Lou Gehrig
Jimmie Foxx
Hank Greenberg
Albert Pujols
Willie McCovey

Second Base

Rogers Hornsby
Jackie Robinson
Joe Morgan
Jeff Kent
Nap Lajoie

Shortstop

Alex Rodriguez
Ernie Banks
Cal Ripken Jr.
Robin Yount
Honus Wagner

Third Base

Mike Schmidt
Brooks Robinson
Eddie Mathews
George Brett
Wade Boggs

Left Field

Ted Williams
Barry Bonds
Stan Musial
Manny Ramirez
Carl Yastrzemski

Center Field

Willie Mays
Ty Cobb
Tris Speaker
Mickey Mantle
Oscar Charleston

Right Field

Babe Ruth
Hank Aaron
Frank Robinson
Mel Ott
Al Kaline

Right Handed Pitcher

Cy Young
Walter Johnson
Christy Mathewson
Bob Gibson
Greg Maddux

Left Handed Pitcher

Sandy Koufax
Randy Johnson
Steve Carlton
Warren Spahn
Whitey Ford

[chicoruiz]

I'd make room for Eddie Collins at 2B, maybe even at #1. And I'd move Wagner up to #1 at SS.

I'd add Pete Alexander and Satchel Paige as RHSP, losing Mathewson and maybe Gibson.

And I'd go with Lefty Grove as the #1 LHSP, by far,

[westofyou]

Joe P is having a poll of who should be the first into the HOF if it started today

http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/06/28/first-class/


Here he comments on Ruth


http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008...fabulous-babe/

Babe Ruth, naturally, is running away in our poll to determine a new First Class for the Baseball Hall of Fame. Well, sure he is. Ruth is a pretty clear choice as the best baseball player ever. He practically invented the home run. He may not have “saved” baseball after the Black Sox scandal in the purest sense but he sure took the game to a new level of popularity. He had a career 207 OPS+, which is so ridiculous it defies words — Ted Williams is second with a 191 OPS+. Or to put it another way, only nine players since 1900 have managed a 207 OPS+ IN A SINGLE SEASON.

Or to put it another way, Ruth’s .690 career slugging percentage is 56 points higher than ANYBODY ELSE IN THE HISTORY OF BASEBALL. It is 133 points higher than Mickey Mantle’s slugging percentage. If you want to take that to the next level, Mickey Mantle’s slugging is 133 points higher than Candy Maldonado and Mike Esptein. So Mantle is to Ruth as Candy and Superjew are to the Mick.

Or to put it another way, from 1919 to 1931 — excluding 1925 when he only played 98 games — Ruth led the league in slugging percentage every year, in OPS ever year, in OPS+ every year, in home runs every year, in runs eight times, in RBIs six times, in walks nine times, in on-base percentage nine times, in total bases six times, in times on base eight times, and so on, and so on, forever.

Then, for kicks, you throw on top his PITCHING, his long-held record for most consecutive scoreless innings pitched in the World, the year he led the league in ERA and shutouts, his pitching record of 94-46 with a 2.28 ERA (though to be perfectly fair, that is deadball era, so his ERA+ is only 122 — which is excellent but perhaps not as good as you might expect for a pitcher with a 2.28 ERA).

[Cyclone792]

Catcher

Josh Gibson
Johnny Bench
Yogi Berra
Mike Piazza
Mickey Cochrane

First Base

Lou Gehrig
Jimmie Foxx
Albert Pujols
Frank Thomas
Jeff Bagwell

Second Base

Eddie Collins
Rogers Hornsby
Joe Morgan
Nap Lajoie
Craig Biggio

Shortstop

Honus Wagner
Alex Rodriguez
Arky Vaughan
Cal Ripken Jr.
Robin Yount

Third Base

Mike Schmidt
Eddie Mathews
George Brett
Wade Boggs
Chipper Jones (just moved up to #5 for me ... simply amazing)

Left Field

Ted Williams
Barry Bonds
Stan Musial
Joe Jackson
Rickey Henderson

Center Field

Ty Cobb
Willie Mays
Tris Speaker
Mickey Mantle
Oscar Charleston

Right Field

Babe Ruth
Hank Aaron
Mel Ott
Frank Robinson
Pete Rose

Right Handed Pitcher

Walter Johnson
Roger Clemens
Pete Alexander
Greg Maddux
Cy Young

Left Handed Pitcher

Lefty Grove
Warren Spahn
Randy Johnson
Steve Carlton
Carl Hubbell

[OnBaseMachine]

I'm not sure how I left out Mike Piazza at catcher or Lefty Grove at LHP. I wish I had put Arky Vaughan in my top five at SS. I probably should have put him in over Ernie Banks. His 1935 season was simply incredible: .385/.491/.607 with a 97 BB/18 K ratio. For his career he walked 937 times and only struckout 276 times.

He died at only 40 years old when his fishing boat sunk and he and his buddy drowned.

[RedsManRick]

I know this is politically incorrect of me, but I really dislike seeing Negro League players in lists like this that are explicitly all-time MLB.

Racism was and is wrong in all its manifestations. There are assuredly players in the Negro League which are of commensurate talent as Major League Baseball Hall of Famers. However, that doesn't mean Josh Gibson played major league baseball.

If you want to put together the list of the greatest baseball players of all time, that's great, Negro Leaguers should be included, as should players from Japan and elsewhere, assuming the have merit. But if you're doing something that is by definition a record of MLB, I'm sorry, but Negro Leagues don't count.

Josh Gibson might be the greatest catcher of all-time. But he's not the best catcher in MLB history because he never played in the "Major Leagues". Perhaps it's an argument to broaden the definition of the list rather than for the exclusion of Negro League players. The National Baseball Hall of Fame should certainly enshrine all historically significant baseball players of any league. But there is a distinction and it should not be swept under the rug.

Where is Saduharu Oh?

[Mario-Rijo]

Roberto Alomar is a top 3 or 4 2B IMO, just a thought. And that is one of the few things I can think of that I don't see there.

[Cyclone792]

Originally Posted by Mario-Rijo

Roberto Alomar is a top 3 or 4 2B IMO, just a thought. And that is one of the few things I can think of that I don't see there.

Alomar is likely underrated by most, but he's not that high. Collins, Hornsby, and Morgan are all by themselves amongst the top three with Lajoie and Biggio firmly behind them. Here's my top 10 at 2B:

Eddie Collins
Rogers Hornsby
Joe Morgan
Nap Lajoie
Craig Biggio
Jackie Robinson
Roberto Alomar
Charlie Gehringer
Ryne Sandberg
Frankie Frisch

I have Jeff Kent 12th. He has a shot to crack the top 10 depending on how his career finishes.

BTW, speaking of Roberto Alomar ... do something fun and check out his stats side-by-side with Barry Larkin. They were nearly identical players: all around complete players who were outstanding defensively in the middle infield. And they'll both be eligible for the Hall in the same year (2010). They're also both VERY deserving Hall of Famers.

[Mario-Rijo]

Originally Posted by Cyclone792

Alomar is likely underrated by most, but he's not that high. Collins, Hornsby, and Morgan are all by themselves amongst the top three with Lajoie and Biggio firmly behind them. Here's my top 10 at 2B:

Eddie Collins
Rogers Hornsby
Joe Morgan
Nap Lajoie
Craig Biggio
Jackie Robinson
Roberto Alomar
Charlie Gehringer
Ryne Sandberg
Frankie Frisch

I have Jeff Kent 12th. He has a shot to crack the top 10 depending on how his career finishes.

BTW, speaking of Roberto Alomar ... do something fun and check out his stats side-by-side with Barry Larkin. They were nearly identical players: all around complete players who were outstanding defensively in the middle infield. And they'll both be eligible for the Hall in the same year (2010). They're also both VERY deserving Hall of Famers.

No wonder Robby was one of my favorite non-Reds players. But seriously Biggio's number's may be better overall but I liked Alomar's defense and versatility better. I suppose thinking about it Biggio was more versatile (in the lineup I mean) than I am willing to give him credit for but I just liked Alomar better. Probably because he was a player so very similiar to Larkin, not just by the #'s but also in style/grace.

[Cyclone792]

Originally Posted by Mario-Rijo

No wonder Robby was one of my favorite non-Reds players. But seriously Biggio's number's may be better overall but I liked Alomar's defense and versatility better. I suppose thinking about it Biggio was more versatile (in the lineup I mean) than I am willing to give him credit for but I just liked Alomar better. Probably because he was a player so very similiar to Larkin, not just by the #'s but also in style/grace.

Barry Larkin and Roberto Alomar were my two favorite players growing up, hands down, for many of the reasons you state.

With regards to Biggio, I just think Biggio was a bit better at his peak and he also lasted as a productive player a little bit longer. Alomar had an outstanding season in 2001 when he was 33, but then he fell off a cliff and was out of baseball altogether by age 36.

Biggio also has a ton of value in a lot of little stats. Here's what Bill James said about him in his Historical Abstract:

Craig Biggio in 1997 was hit by 34 pitches, while grounding into zero double plays. Both of these figures were historic. He was the fifth player ever to play a full season without grounding into a double play, and missed the major league record for most plate appearances without grounding into a double play by only four. The 34 HBP was the highest total in the National League in 26 years, the second-highest of the twentieth century.

I have always linked these two stats together, long before Biggio, as "little stats." There are a half-dozen batting stats which get left out of USA Today, and left off baseball cards, becausely they're not generally significant. The stats include sacrifice hits, sac flies, and intentional walks, but GIDP and hit batsmen are the most important of the group, the two which are most likely to change the way a player should be evaluated.

-----------

Biggio has the best "little stats" of any player in baseball history, this being one of the reasons that he has been tremendously underrated. If you compare him to, let's say, Jim Rice in 1984, Biggio has a hidden advantage of 69 extra times on base, since he was hit by pitches 33 more times (34 to 1), and beat the throw to first on a double play attempt 36 more times (0 to 36). Those little stats that get left out of USA Today, in this comparison, have an impact roughly equivalent to 100 points of batting average.

** As an aside, could somebody get Brandon Phillips to read this piece, specifically regarding the double plays?

[Mario-Rijo]

Good stuff on Biggio, I wonder if Don Baylor had the highest HBP season in the NL or if somebody else just had a lucky....err perhaps unlucky season. I know I used to hate to see Biggio lean into one and the ump go ahead and give him the base.

Alomar was probably my 4th most favorite player after Larkin, Rijo, Davis but my favorite non-Red. Had he played for us he would have jumped to 2nd easily.