Dunn traded to DBacks

[paintmered]

Originally Posted by Mario-Rijo

Barry Larkin didn't do a lot of head 1st sliding and such but he was equally admired for his play.

Barry was generally liked by Cincy. But even Larkin wasn't adored despite being a native son and one of the greatest shortstops in the history of the game. Not like he should have been anyways.

[Screwball]

Originally Posted by WVRedsFan

So would I. I don't have a problem with Phillips. I just don't think he's leadership material. I look for the leadership to come from those we acquire this winter.

I look for Bruce and Votto to become the leaders of the team.

[MartyFan]

Originally Posted by MWM

Hogwash. A "hustle" obsessed poster like yourself blaming BP's lack of hustle on Junior and Dunn? That's rich.

Suuurrrrrre, that's the type of "leader" the team needs.... a guy who has an "if they can do it so can I" (your words) attitude. You lay out an argument for why he dogs it down the line that paints a picture of the exat opposite of leader .... a follower. And of bad examples to boot.

Let the winning begin. We have our leader.

I am hustle obsessed because I have watched Junior and Dunn for the last several years...and during that time the organization tip toed around them...I respect Junior for his courage to come back after the injuries but he needed to hang it up a couple years ago.

BP isn't only hustle, he has a little fire in him too and don't forget he isn't a horrible performer on the field.

Not saying he didn't follow the leaders on the team before, just saying now he has the opportunity to step into the role of leader.

The talent hasn't and isn't here right now to win...still they have some good parts and I do believe with a young team like the Reds have that Junior and Dunn were both minus factors to everyone else.

I am in favor of the team making wholesale changes to move forward...meaning "winning"...even if that means Arroyo, Phillips, Harang and Cordero all gone...if that is what it will take.

If you look at the team as it is now and was 48 hours ago...I'd say of those left you look at BP as a/the leader...is he perfect? Nope..but having worked for leaders who are RAH RAH, LAID BACK and PATTONESQUE in some very competitive fields for 20+ years I can tell you that like I said that the "team" will respond only to the type of leader they believe...Junior is a great individual athlete who never has won anything...Dunn was a QB who turned his focus to baseball when he saw he couldn't win the number 1 spot on his team...he wasn't good enough at executing and he wasn't a strong enough leader on THAT team...could he have gone elsewhere and played? Maybe...Thing is, he is not a leader...he is not a player who is to be the center of any organization., he is a piece...a VERY GOOD PIECE but he is NOT the centerpiece of an organization at all.

Every team has a heartbeat and the Reds with Junior and or Dunn as the leader(s) were on life support...I in no means think this will turn the team around overnight but I do believe it is a HUGE step for the organization in the right direction.

[Mario-Rijo]

Originally Posted by paintmered

Barry was generally liked by Cincy. But even Larkin wasn't adored despite being a native son and one of the greatest shortstops in the history of the game. Not like he should have been anyways.

I get that but I think it was his approach to fandom he was a bit less accesible and more reserved than was Rose. But his game was likely as appreciated just not talked as much about.

[Mario-Rijo]

Originally Posted by MWM

Not really. He wasn't reviled, but he was never truly embraced, IMO, as one of the great shortstops in the history of the game. I'd definitely he wasn't "equally" admired. As a matter of fact, I bet if you did a poll of the average Cincinnati Reds fan who is old enough to at least remember Davey Concepcion , an overwhelming majority would say Davey was a better player than Barry. Heck, I bet if you put the poll up here at RedsZone, it would be 50-50.

I love Davey but anyone who truly believes that is not being honest with themselves. But I suppose that's par for the course in Cincy.

[MWM]

Originally Posted by Mario-Rijo

I get that but I think it was his approach to fandom he was a bit less accesible and more reserved than was Rose. But his game was likely as appreciated just not talked as much about.

I disagree with that completely.

[MWM]

Originally Posted by Mario-Rijo

I love Davey but anyone who truly believes that is not being honest with themselves. But I suppose that's par for the course in Cincy.

Yep, that's my point. I might just put up a poll in the next couple of days just to satisfy my curiosity.

[paintmered]

Originally Posted by MWM

I disagree with that completely.

Yep. Barry Larkin should have owned this town for over a decade and didn't.

[RedEye]

Originally Posted by MartyFan

If you look at the team as it is now and was 48 hours ago...I'd say of those left you look at BP as a/the leader...is he perfect? Nope..but having worked for leaders who are RAH RAH, LAID BACK and PATTONESQUE in some very competitive fields for 20+ years I can tell you that like I said that the "team" will respond only to the type of leader they believe...Junior is a great individual athlete who never has won anything...Dunn was a QB who turned his focus to baseball when he saw he couldn't win the number 1 spot on his team...he wasn't good enough at executing and he wasn't a strong enough leader on THAT team...could he have gone elsewhere and played? Maybe...Thing is, he is not a leader...he is not a player who is to be the center of any organization., he is a piece...a VERY GOOD PIECE but he is NOT the centerpiece of an organization at all.

Every team has a heartbeat and the Reds with Junior and or Dunn as the leader(s) were on life support...I in no means think this will turn the team around overnight but I do believe it is a HUGE step for the organization in the right direction.

I guess I just don't think a baseball team is about the "leaders" or about the "centerpiece." It's about the total talent of the team, 99 out of 100 times. Dunn and Junior could have been the best leaders in the history of the sport and this team probably still wouldn't have won baseball games. That means they are also NOT to blame for the losing. We should wish them well on their new teams. The Reds will have a difficult time scoring without them.

[MartyFan]

Originally Posted by RedEye

I guess I just don't think a baseball team is about the "leaders" or about the "centerpiece." It's about the total talent of the team, 99 out of 100 times. Dunn and Junior could have been the best leaders in the history of the sport and this team probably still wouldn't have won baseball games. That means they are also NOT to blame for the losing. We should wish them well on their new teams. The Reds will have a difficult time scoring without them.

I get what you are saying but every organization has a foundation that it has to build on...a culture it has to establish and the Reds STILL need to do that.

I think the team has some good talent that has underperformed DRASTICALLY this year...A good example of a good leader is how Greg Vaughn helped a pretty average team in 1999 over perform...he did that by threatening to beat down anyone who slacked...was he liked by everyone? Nope but he was able to motivate the team that allowed Mack to say "I just let them go out there and play"..that's the only example I can come up with in recent Reds history.

[durl]

Originally Posted by RedEye

I guess I just don't think a baseball team is about the "leaders" or about the "centerpiece." It's about the total talent of the team, 99 out of 100 times. Dunn and Junior could have been the best leaders in the history of the sport and this team probably still wouldn't have won baseball games. That means they are also NOT to blame for the losing. We should wish them well on their new teams. The Reds will have a difficult time scoring without them.

+1

Leadership takes many forms. It can be silent or overt. And I don't think you have to have a vocal leader in order to be a successful team.

But as you said, it takes talent, plain and simple. And those talented players have to be more concerned about the team than their own egos.

I also agree about the Reds scoring potential for the rest of the year. They've substantially weakened their ability to get runs across the plate.

[Krusty]

The Reds need to bring players in with winning attitudes.

[MartyFan]

Originally Posted by Krusty

The Reds need to bring players in with winning attitudes.

and talent

[MWM]

My only surprise is that the "Greg Vaughn in 1999" card wasn't played until page 63. That's one of the biggest misconceptions I've ever seen in Reds fandom. If that team had a leader it was Barry Larkin.

And that team was far from average. That was a damn good team, and after the fact it came out that most of the players didn't like Vaughn at all. His style was abrasive and he didn't have many friends in the clubhouse. The Greg Vaughn folklore was debunked years ago.

[Gainesville Red]

Originally Posted by Krusty

The Reds need to bring players in with winning attitudes.

But what does that mean? Can you define it?


I'd settle for some good baseball players. (Plural, the roster's a mess.)