Dunn traded to DBacks

[MWM]

Originally Posted by Krusty

Eight years of losing and the Reds are paying Dunn and Griffey 25 million while watching this team play to a level of mediocrity.

Maybe the Reds don't get Texieria. Maybe they go with a youth movement. But bottom line is this team wasn't going to win with these two and no matter who the manager or general manager or who the owner is.

So now they can pay Mark Texieria $15MM a year and watch the team play to the same level of mediocrity. Where do I sign.

[OnBaseMachine]

"It's going to be good," said pitcher Brandon Webb. "He's a guy that produces a lot of runs, he draws some walks and has a good on-base percentage. I don't know where they're going to stick him, but wherever it is, he's going to do some damage."

Brandon Webb is a smart guy.

[Az Red]

It's time to get some sleep. Let me know what I miss. Probably not much...

[RedEye]

Originally Posted by George Anderson

It seems simplistic but I agree that the players of late in this organization just don't seem to have winning attitudes.

In 1990 I felt by acquiring guys with playoff experience in Mariano Duncan, Bill Doran, Billy Hatcher, Rick Mahler and with Griffey Sr. already on board they just knew what it took to get a team to win and get in to the playoffs. Throw in Lou Pinella who while hadn't won anything yet as a manager just seemed to add to the chemistry that produced a winning attitude.

I haven't seen a real winning attitude like this since the Greg Vaughn days.

There very well may be "winning attitude" guys who make a difference in MLB. Problem is that we as fans have VERY little idea who those guys are. We think we can put a finger on things by watching what they do on the field. We think that because Dunn look lackadaisical or because BP looks fiery that this is what translates to their leadership skills, but nothing is further from the truth.

Half the time I feel like my personality isn't accurately reflected by my image on the screen when I'm Skyping with family; I can't imagine how mortified I'd be watching what I looked like playing baseball every day! Personal issues aside, what I'm trying to say is that we CAN'T tell who these people are from how they carry themselves... and we sure as heck can't tell how they are affecting each other just by whether they pat each other on the backs or glare at each other in the dugout in a TV closeup.

I heard that Greg Vaughn was an "intimidator" and a "winner" in 1999 and that is why the team won. Baloney! I think that's much less likely than the fact that he hit a boatload of HR down the stretch--and that the team had a darn good pitching staff and a good defense to back it up. We have to stop thinking we can judge personalities just based on the small sample size of images and impressions we get as fans.

[George Anderson]

Originally Posted by RedsManRick

Duncan, Doran, Hatcher, etc. are great for chemistry when you have Davis, Larkin, O'Neil, Sabo, Rijo, Browning, Myers, Dibble, Charlton. The problem of the Reds of recent vintage is the lack of guys from that group, not the lack of Billy Dorans and Rick Mahlers.

You can't fret about the players who put you over the top when you are sitting at the base of the mountain.

I agree

The Reds can acquire all the "winning attitudes" in the world but if you don't have the players to go along with them then the "winning attitudes" will go south quick.

But I do think having guys like Doran, Duncan, Hatcher etc..in the clubhouse will help show the younger guys what a winning attitude is all about. Thats the easy part, finding more Larkins, Dibbles, Davis and Rijo's is the hard part.

[Patrick Bateman]

Whitesell interests me quite a bit.

He's a late bloomer (I think he was recently claimed off waivers by the Nats before the year, wasn't in their top 30 at the beginning of the year), but the guy has a clue what he's doing at the plate.

His numbers are great this year, partially because of the PCL, but I think the breakout is for real. He's 26 and ready made. The entire package almost reminds me to Votto as a hitter. More walks, but also more Ks as the trade off. 25 homer type of power ceiling. I think he'll hit.

The problem I see is where to play these guys. I really believe in Votto's defense at first, and all things equal I'd like to see him stick there (and from all reports Votto's defense in AAA LF was nothing short of awful last season). Is there any thought that Whitesell could transition to LF? His defense at first looks a tad suspect, but LF is about as easy a position to play as it gets. His bat should play, so if he could make the switch, I'd be pretty happy to add a bat like that to the lineup.

[OnBaseMachine]

Jocketty begins molding Reds in his image

By Hal McCoy

Staff Writer

Tuesday, August 12, 2008

When they design the 2009 Cincinnati Reds uniforms, they should replace the wishbone 'C' on the chest with a picture of Reds General Manager Walt Jocketty.

It is going to be his team, a team in his image.

That became evident over the past few days when he traded Ken Griffey Jr. and Adam Dunn and designated David Ross for assignment. Believe me, there is more to come.

By disposing of the two most visible franchise faces — Griffey and Dunn — Jocketty is cleansing eight years of losing spirits. It is his own TV reality show: Starting Over.

Dunn was sent to the Arizona Diamondbacks on Monday, Aug. 11, for minor-league pitcher Dallas Buck and two players to be named later.

Now what? Well, the 2008 season has been a quagmire for months and it will only get worse because Jocketty didn't get anything in return for this year's team. The white flag couldn't be bigger or whiter.

Jocketty is gathering low-level minor-league players, which sniffs of another long rebuilding process and another tenure that says, "Be patient." Most fans ran out of patience years ago.

The upcoming offseason shall tell the tale. If the Reds go after big-ticket free agents, then maybe they are living up to what owner Bob Castellini said when he fired GM Wayne Krivsky early this season: "We will not lose anymore."

Well, they kept losing. And losing and losing and losing. Lately they've played with the interest a dog has in cabbage and broccoli. Sniff, sniff — not interested.

With the losing comes disinterest at the gate. How many camouflage shirts, lunch boxes, ladies ball caps, build-a-bears and $1 hot dogs can they offer to lure people in to see ... what?

The break-even point this year was 2.4 million fans. That isn't going to happen. So will the Reds have money to pursue top-shelf free agents, compete with the New York Yankees, Boston Red Sox, Chicago Cubs and Los Angeles Dodgers?

That's doubtful. That means a long rebuilding process. Again. Patience, please.

It is for sure that the Reds put together eight straight losing seasons with Griffey and Dunn in the lineup, but blaming them for it is like blaming the weather man for the rain.

They didn't win with them, so dump them. But who replaces about 70 home runs and about 180 RBIs every year? They are left with Edwin Encarnacion (unless they trade him, too), who is even less consistent than Dunn, and Brandon Phillips, a guy batting fourth who shouldn't be batting fourth.

They have young players like Joey Votto and Jay Bruce, but they need more. Much more. They have what most thought would be a glorious pitching staff in Aaron Harang, Bronson Arroyo, Edinson Volquez, Johnny Cueto and Homer Bailey. How'd that turn out?

Jocketty stayed quiet and in the background for nearly three months. Now he has thrust his will into the picture. For those with season tickets, all one can say for the rest of the year is, "Hang with 'em and good luck."

And to Jocketty? While searching for players this offseason, find your best photo for the team's jerseys. It's your baby.

Dunn's bombs

Adam Dunn has hit 270 home runs since arriving in the major leagues with the Cincinnati Reds in 2001. Here's where he stands on the Reds' all-time list:

1. Johnny Bench (1967-83) . . . 389

2. Frank Robinson (1956-65) . . . 324

3. Tony Perez

(1964-76), (1984-86) . . . 287

4. Adam Dunn (2001-08) . . . 270

5. Ted Kluszewski (1947-57) . . . 251

Among best in MLB

In the last six seasons, two major leaguers have hit more home runs than Dunn. Homers from 2003 to present:

Alex Rodriguez, Yankees . . . 246

Albert Pujols, Cardinals . . . 235

Adam Dunn, Reds . . . 225

David Ortiz, Red Sox . . . 222

http://www.daytondailynews.com/s/con...08spmccoy.html

[MartyFan]

Originally Posted by RedsManRick

MF, I think the question is not whether or not culture/leadership is important. Let's assume it is for the sake of discussion. The question is whether Dunn's presence somehow prevented the Reds from having said culture. I think it's difficult to make the case that Dunn is at fault for the Reds attitude. Rather, I think the attitude is a direct result of a dearth of talent. Losing begets losing. I don't disagree that the Reds culture left a lot to be desired. But I don't see many teams with the poor talent level the Reds have run out there the last 8 years with the type of culture being described. It's tough to adopt a position where losing is unacceptable when the deck is constantly stacked against you.

I suppose one could argue that no amount of talent is worth the money Dunn would require if it does not also come with the type of leadership abilities you've described. However, I imagine that on a team in the hunt, Dunn's attitude and role in the clubhouse will be cast in a very different light. It would have been very interesting to see how Dunn would have been received had he been surrounded with more talent in Red.

Right, and I think that is pretty much what I was saying in the post you responded to most recently.

He cannot be the centerpiece of any team...he has to be A PIECE...Especially though, with the Reds.

[Jpup]

I can't believe this.

[MWM]

Originally Posted by MartyFan

He cannot be the centerpiece of any team...he has to be A PIECE...Especially though, with the Reds.

You realize that you're pointing out a failure of the Reds, not Adam Dunn, correct? And that almost contradicts much of what you've said here about him being such a bad influence so to cause other players to become loafers. You're now saying he could be a piece of a winning team. That's a different tune than what you said earlier.

[Caveat Emperor]

Walt Jocketty struck gold when he hung onto a struggling pitcher named Rick Ankiel and had him converted to an everyday player...

...maybe he's seeing yet another opportunity to take two bites at the apple with a player, once as a pitcher and once as a hitter, with Micah Owings.

[RedsManRick]

Originally Posted by MartyFan

Right, and I think that is pretty much what I was saying in the post you responded to most recently.

He cannot be the centerpiece of any team...he has to be A PIECE...Especially though, with the Reds.

I think we should consider exactly what you're asking for though. The only players which come to mind as both the best player and clubhouse leader of a championship caliber team are David Ortiz and Albert Pujols. Perhaps Jeter circa 1999.

Expecting any player to serve in both capacities is quite a bit to ask. That most could not appreciate Dunn for what he could provide saddens me.

It was not that Dunn could not lead the great talent around him. It's that there was little talent around for him to lead. We could easily argue that we'll never know what kind of leader Dunn could have been, both due to the lack of talent to lead and to his position as requisite 2nd fiddle to Junior.

I don't think we've had the opportunity to see whether or not Dunn could be the/a centerpiece. He was never given the chance, not by Reds management, certainly not by Reds announcers, and not by Reds fans.

[OnBaseMachine]

I do think it's interesting that Whitesell didn't play tonight. I think that could be an indication that he is one of the the two players to be named later. Like AK said earlier, Whitesell is a late bloomer having turned 26 years old a few months back. He's currently hitting .331/.428/.564 - .992 in AAA and is major league ready. Maybe Jocketty thinks he is another late bloomer in the mold of Ryan Ludwick, who Walt acquired when he was with St. Louis. A package of Dallas Buck/Micah Owings/Josh Whitesell wouldn't be a bad return at all IMO.

[RedlegJake]

Originally Posted by RedsManRick

I think we should consider exactly what you're asking for though. The only players which come to mind as both the best player and clubhouse leader of a championship caliber team are David Ortiz and Albert Pujols. Perhaps Jeter circa 1999.

Expecting any player to serve in both capacities is quite a bit to ask. That most could not appreciate Dunn for what he could provide saddens me.

It was not that Dunn could not lead the great talent around him. It's that there was little talent around for him to lead. We could easily argue that we'll never know what kind of leader Dunn could have been, both due to the lack of talent to lead and to his position as requisite 2nd fiddle to Junior.

I don't we've had the opportunity to see whether or not Dunn could be the centerpiece. He was never given the chance. Not by Reds management. Certainly not by Reds announcers. And not by Reds fans.

I absolutely agree with this. I'll be interested to see what he does with a team in real contention. Sadly though, I believe it was going to be hard for him to stay here and be part of a rebuilding team simply because of money. Cast's comments about 09 aside (I'm beginning to wonder if the Reds owner has any real baseball sense at all, I once hoped he'd learn eventually like Steinbrenner did but I'm now clinging to the hope he rattles on all he wants but lets Walt handle the baseball decisions...just open your wallet along with your mouth Bob and say Yes, Walt, when asked) next year will be a rebuilding year though I actually expect the Reds to have a better record than this season.

[Big Klu]

Originally Posted by Matt700wlw

I may just have to ask him tomorrow....and then keep it a secret, too..

Originally Posted by RedEye

Would you really do that? Can we set up some kind of secret/public code language?

If Owings is involved, then the code is "John has a long moustache."