Freel traded for Ramon Hernandez

[SMcGavin]

Originally Posted by RedsManRick

- .260./.310/.400 and experienced or .270/.360/.370 without experience. Who do YOU think Dusty will play 80% of the time?

I will be really suprised if Hernandez has that line in 09. BABIP data has him pretty unlucky last year, and even if you don't buy that he's coming over from the AL East where the other four teams in his division had ERA+s of 122, 116, 115, and 104.

[OnBaseMachine]

Turner is a second baseman, not a SS.

[Mario-Rijo]

Originally Posted by RedsManRick

My thoughts:

- Hernandez is a 33 year old catcher with declining offensive value and a mediocre glove - we darn well better not taking on salary this year or next
- .260./.310/.400 and experienced or .270/.360/.370 without experience. Who do YOU think Dusty will play 80% of the time?
- If all we wanted was an upgrade over Paul Bako, we could have simply played Hanigan every day
- I think Ryan Freel will provide more value above replacement in 2009 than Hernandez will.
- Who plays CF versus lefties? Dickerson or a new acquisition?
- The Reds don't see Jeff Keppinger as a starter -- or see Castillo as a good enough utility guy
- I'm surprised we traded only SS in the system who could both field and hit, if neither superbly. I thought Turner had an outside shot of being the starting SS by the end of the season and could become a Mark DeRosa type utility guy.
- Waring is one of those high risk/ high reward types where we'll either never hear about him again or will be smacking ourselves in the forehead for years to come
- I wonder if we can extrapolate regarding Jocketty's view of big power, big strikeout type bats in general?

Are you just playing devil's advocate or are you serious about all that?

[OnBaseMachine]

Freel on the deal
Posted by JohnFay at 12/9/2008 7:13 PM EST on Cincinnati.com

Ryan Freel was happy for a fresh start but still getting his mind around getting traded:

"A piece of me is excited. But I'm upset because of my relationship with the fans in Cincinnati. It's been tough. But you can't look at the past. I'm still playing baseball. But it's kind of an emotional time. I'm torn."

Say what you will about Freel but you can't dispute the fact that the guy played his heart out every night.

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs...cincinnati.com

[RedsManRick]

Originally Posted by reds44

Turner isn't a SS, is he? Pretty sure he is a 2nd baseman.

D'oh... Well then, that changes things a little bit in terms of short term value -- same basic calculus though. My biggest complaint is that it looks like we took on a decent chunk of salary.

[Caveat Emperor]

Originally Posted by RedsManRick

- If all we wanted was an upgrade over Paul Bako, we could have simply played Hanigan every day

I'm not at all sold on Ryan Hanigan as an everyday major leaguer, and apparently neither was WJ.

I think it's the height of stupid baseball to hand a guy like Hanigan a job based on 100 or so ABs if there are better/proven players to be had out there. Maybe Hanigan continues to play well next year and the team unloads Hernandez for a prospect or a pick. Maybe he doesn't. The point is, at least there is now a known commodity that can provide league-average at the position.

[Redny]

This looks like a solid deal for the Reds. Turner at best could be an utility IFr and Waring is a contact challenged 3B who K'd more than a third of the time in Low-A. I expect that Hernandez will be plenty motivated considering his contract status.

[OnBaseMachine]

Walt on the deal
Posted by JohnFay at 12/9/2008 6:52 PM EST on Cincinnati.com

Walt Jocketty targeted Ramon Hernandez as early as last season.

"We thought he was the perfect fit. He'll provide good leaders, good offense in our part and handle the staff."

The reports are Hernandez didn't do that last year in Baltimore.

"That was part of reports. We had scouts who saw him in the past. He talked about it. We think a change of scenery will do him good. i talked to him. He's excited about the trade."

Said Dusty Baker: "I remember him as a young catcher in Oakland. They had a good staff there. He'll be good for out staff."

Jocketty would not say how much money was exchanged in the deal. It was at least $1 million.

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs...cincinnati.com

[RedsManRick]

Originally Posted by Mario-Rijo

Are you just playing devil's advocate or are you serious about all that?

For the most part, I'm serious. Forgive me for not being terribly excited about spending extra money and trading prospects for a catcher on who is clearly on the decline offensively and defensively and is likely to take away at bats from a younger guy who knows how to get on base.

It's a small move in the whole scheme of things and there's a little bit of upside involved if he has a resurgent year. I just see it as more or less a shuffling of deck chairs move that fritters away more payroll. I'd happily eat crow if he goes out OPS's .775.

[reds44]

Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor

I'm not at all sold on Ryan Hanigan as an everyday major leaguer, and apparently neither was WJ.

I think it's the height of stupid baseball to hand a guy like Hanigan a job based on 100 or so ABs if there are better/proven players to be had out there. Maybe Hanigan continues to play well next year and the team unloads Hernandez for a prospect or a pick. Maybe he doesn't. The point is, at least there is now a known commodity that can provide league-average at the position.

I think it's similar to the Dickerson situation. They like what they have in Hanigan, but they aren't ready to hand him the keys to the car yet. Hernandez will probably end up with more at bats this season, but if Hanigan continues to hit well in his at bats you won't see Hernandez's option picked up. And even if the Reds are sold on Hanigan, there is nothing wrong with have two catchers who are actual major league players.

[reds44]

Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine

Walt on the deal
Posted by JohnFay at 12/9/2008 6:52 PM EST on Cincinnati.com

Walt Jocketty targeted Ramon Hernandez as early as last season.

"We thought he was the perfect fit. He'll provide good leaders, good offense in our part and handle the staff."

The reports are Hernandez didn't do that last year in Baltimore.

"That was part of reports. We had scouts who saw him in the past. He talked about it. We think a change of scenery will do him good. i talked to him. He's excited about the trade."

Said Dusty Baker: "I remember him as a young catcher in Oakland. They had a good staff there. He'll be good for out staff."

Jocketty would not say how much money was exchanged in the deal. It was at least $1 million.

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs...cincinnati.com

"The Orioles included $3 million to pay part of Hernandez's $8 million contract, sources told CBSSports.com's Scott Miller."

The Reds didn't spend any extra money to get Hernandez, the O's made up the difference.

[RedEye]

Originally Posted by RedsManRick

For the most part, I'm serious. Forgive me for not being terribly excited about spending extra money and trading prospects for a catcher on who is clearly on the decline offensively and defensively and is likely to take away at bats from a younger guy who knows how to get on base.

You did just sum up the downside of this deal. But since the Reds are only on the hook for one year of Hernandez's contract and the prospects given up were minor, I'm not too up in arms. I have a feeling that he's going to be the most all-around competent catcher they've had since... Jason LaRue?

[Patrick Bateman]

Originally Posted by RedsManRick

- I'm surprised we traded only SS in the system who could both field and hit, if neither superbly. I thought Turner had an outside shot of being the starting SS by the end of the season and could become a Mark DeRosa type utility guy.

Turner has about an average fielding 2nd basemen. If he could field competently as a SS, he might actually project as something. instead he has the bat of a back-up, and the range of a 2nd basemen. I'm of the opinion that we wont be missing him much.

- Waring is one of those high risk/ high reward types where we'll either never hear about him again or will be smacking ourselves in the forehead for years to come

How much upside does he really have. He's about to turn 23, was mediocre at A ball, and projects to be a LF/1B where his bat doesn't project at all. I personally think he's a non prospect.

As for Hernandez vs. Freel. Well I don't think Freel is going to be worth much until he rekindles his plate discipline of past. He fluked out 100 at-bats in '08 and still wasn't all that good. With his mediocre defensive skills, and ridiculous baserunning, I hardly even like him as a bench option these days.

I'm not in love with Hernandez, but I think he should get back above the .750 OPS range with the league switch. At just a one year pact, I'm not that worried about his game plummeting. He should be fairly averagish.

Even if you like Hanigan, there's still going to be 200 at-bats left over for the backup. In most cases 2 catchers are needed, and I certainly haven't been convinced that Hanigan can carry the entire load. I like the idea that every game next year we should be comfortable with the catcher in the line-up, and that's a good thing. No more Bako, Valentin, or whatever. That's a sneaky upgrade. I don't care about the stuff we gave up, so in my mind, it's a 1 year 2-4M deal, and for a competent catcher, that's a pretty reasonable short term solution and IMO a bargain when considering the price of alternatives.

[Mario-Rijo]

Originally Posted by RedsManRick

For the most part, I'm serious. Forgive me for not being terribly excited about spending extra money and trading prospects for a catcher on who is clearly on the decline offensively and defensively and is likely to take away at bats from a younger guy who knows how to get on base.

It's a small move in the whole scheme of things and there's a little bit of upside involved if he has a resurgent year. I just see it as more or less a shuffling of deck chairs move that fritters away more payroll.

I don't know that we did spend extra money or not yet. And if so we were bound to anyway to get another catcher. And it does appear Hernandez is slowing down but how much of that is him (defe.) and how much is it young pitchers not holding guys on or being slow to the plate, throwing tons of wild pitches and just simply keeping Hernandez squatting for ridiculous amounts of time, etc. That and the losing makes one wonder just how much he is slipping if at all.

[Patrick Bateman]

Originally Posted by reds44

The Reds didn't spend any extra money to get Hernandez, the O's made up the difference.

Freel vs. Hernandez was a 5M difference when you consider the buyout. Getting 3M from the O's makes this a 2M decision, plus the worth of the players moved.