Willy Taveras

[REDREAD]

Originally Posted by Ltlabner

* Before the season Dusty bragged that he could lure players to Cincy. Patterson played for Dusty in Chicago. Do you really think Dusty had no input whatsoever in Wayne's efforts to bring him to town? Too much of a coincidence for a reasonable person to ignore.

How is that relevant? Dusty wanted Wood to come here. Walt said no.
It's the GM's responsible to assemble the roster.

Originally Posted by Ltlabner

* Once the season started who make's out the lineup? Are you wanting us to believe that Dusty doesn't and some other person does? Who? The guy in section 518? What unknown forces inked Patterson into the leadoff spot for the months of April, May and June?

The Reds had a weak lineup last year. I agree that the lineup was not optimized. I think Dusty felt that putting Patterson in the leadoff spot would make him approach his at bats better (like focus on OBP). Obviously, it did not work well with Patterson. Some of Dusty's lineup tinkering did bring benefits though. He got a good year out of Harriston and EdE. Dusty does not get the credit he deserves for pulling the best year yet out of the egnematic EdE.

* Later in the season, why did we continue to see Patterson in CF and Dickerson in LF? Was a law passed in Congress that forced poor ole Dusty to play Patterson in CF?

Because Patterson has a superior glove to Dickerson.

* Who sends out the pinch hitters?

Nitpicking. The Reds' bench sucked last year. Dusty had to use Patterson a few times to pinch hit (I think that is your point). Without going into it game by game, it is hard to use that as damaging evidence.

Sorry Redread, .

Apology accepted.

hinking that Dusty was forced to use Patterson just doesn't stand the scrutiny of reason and facts.

All I see is you complaining that Patterson was in CF despite the fact that Patterson is a better defender than Dickerson. Then you complain that Patterson was used as pinch hitter a few times. (Wouldn't that make you happy that Patterson was PH instead of starting?) Then you have some conspiracy about Dusty forcing Wayne to put Patterson on the roster while keeping Bruce at AAA. Are you going to blame Dusty for Castro, Valentin, etc too? Wayne was a poor GM. I know it's fashionable to blame Dusty for everything, but that's not reality.

Address my key point. The Reds were forced to recall Patterson from AAA due to injuries and trades. Lack of OF depth forced Dusty to play Patterson.
I agree that Dusty's attempt to motivate Patterson's OBP by batting him leadoff failed, but Dusty didn't do it to sabotage the Reds.

[TRF]

Originally Posted by REDREAD

I certainly hope development doesn't stop at 27. Dickerson turns 26 in April.

For some reason, people consider Dickerson young and up and coming, while Taveras is old and washed up. If Taveras spent as much time in the minors as Dickerson did, he'd probably have pretty guady minor league numbers as well.

Dickerson doesn't have gaudy minor league numbers, which you would know, had you ever looked at them.

What he has is solid numbers that show a progression as a player. Taveras was rushed in the hope that he was something he isn't.

He isn't a good defender.

He isn't a good hitter.

He isn't a good batter. (OBP)

and except for last year, he hasn't been a very good base stealer.

but keep beating the drum that a guy that's been PROVEN to you over and over is BELOW replacement level is a good fit for the Reds.

[Ltlabner]

Originally Posted by REDREAD

Address my key point. The Reds were forced to recall Patterson from AAA due to injuries and trades. Lack of OF depth forced Dusty to play Patterson.

I agree that Dusty's attempt to motivate Patterson's OBP by batting him leadoff failed, but Dusty didn't do it to sabotage the Reds.

I can see facts and logic are not going to trump what you've decided happened. I've clearly detailed how Dusty was not forced to use Patterson in the way he was used yet you will continue to harp that he's just an innocent patsy overtaken by circumstance.

You win.

Willy Taveras generating outs at a rapid pace in the leadoff spot for hundreds of at bats would be great and help the Reds win. Speed is nifty. Having a batter that can't get on-base in a game built around getting on base is a good idea.

While the data clearly shows Taveras is a horrible player it'll be great to have him on our team because that one time he stole some bases.

As Wheels might say: Yippie.

[BRM]

Originally Posted by Ltlabner

Willy Taveras generating outs at a rapid pace in the leadoff spot for hundreds of at bats would be great and help the Reds win.

It will certainly keep RedsZone interesting all spring and summer. Meanwhile, the Reds will rocket their way towards another losing season.

[Ltlabner]

Originally Posted by BRM

It will certainly keep RedsZone interesting all spring and summer. Meanwhile, the Reds will rocket their way towards another losing season.

And the frustrating part will be those pimping a Taveras move now will never own up to the stupidity of the move should it come to pass and we are treated to the suckness that is Willy T. No, instead there will be another re-writing of history and a thousand reasons why he isn't that bad, despite all the numbers to the contrary.

But he's fast. Oh boy.

[BRM]

Originally Posted by Ltlabner

And the frustrating part will be those pimping a Taveras move now will never own up to the stupidity of the move should it come to pass and we are treated to the suckness that is Willy T. No, instead there will be another re-writing of history and a thousand reasons why he isn't that bad, despite all the numbers to the contrary.

Dusty's hand will be forced to play him regularly due to a lack of other options. Does that sound like a familiar excuse?

[nate]

Originally Posted by REDREAD

I can respect that opinion. I just have a different view. IMO, wasting resources is giving guys like Olmedo, Janish, etc playing time on the hope that somehow a light bulb goes off and they become ok players.

I disagree with your example of Janish. I think, given better bats in the lineup, he's a fine 8-spot hitter and excellent defender for cheap.

Most prospects wash out. Smart organizations don't waste a lot of ML playing time on marginal prospects. Brandon Larson is a good example. The Reds wasted a lot of playing time on him, and even moved Aaron Boone to accomodate him (which hurt Boone's production).

Maybe the Reds development system sucks?

Think in pure isolation. Who is likely to produce more in 2009, Taveraz or the next best option?

I have emerged from my sensory deprivation tank with the answer.

The answer is...

:drumroll emoticon:

...the next best option.

It's a hard question to answer because the roster is in flux.

I found it pretty easy to answer. YMMV.

Some people are convinced Stubbs would outproduce Taveras, but I don't think so.

I think that he'll at least equal Taveras and have the redeeming factor of being a cheap, excellent defender.

Remember Bill James lofty predictions for Jay Bruce last year? The guy didn't even OPS 800. That's because young players will struggle.

Oh well.

I completely acknowledge that Tavaraz is likely to be a below average player.

Yes.

He has some upside which we can debate.

I don't think it's debatable, myself. I've read a lot both here and elsewhere and find no argument to convince me that Willy Taveras is worth the Reds' money.

But the bottom line is that we need some OF depth to avoid rushing minor leaguers up before they are ready.

I agree that we need OF depth.

I'm not really pumped that right now Nix is looking to get significant playing time either.

I'm not really pumped that Walt is looking to sign Willy Taveras and insert him into the leadoff/CF spot every day.

I'd love to add a premium CF to this roster, I just don't see it realistically happening without trading Volquez or Ceuto.

I think we could have good CF production by platooning Dickerson and Bruce with Rocco Baldelli. Sign or trade for one of the bats out there and roll the dice. It's not a plan to win the WS next year, but it's a plan that will keep butts in seats, let the Reds hover around .500 and let our younger players mature.

[Highlifeman21]

Almost 23% right now think Willy Taveras should be a Red in 2009.

Really?



Did all 27 of you really mean to vote yes?

.... and if so, WHY?!

[RedEye]

Originally Posted by REDREAD

Address my key point. The Reds were forced to recall Patterson from AAA due to injuries and trades. Lack of OF depth forced Dusty to play Patterson.
I agree that Dusty's attempt to motivate Patterson's OBP by batting him leadoff failed, but Dusty didn't do it to sabotage the Reds.

No manager (with the possible exception of Pete Rose, who still denies it) wants to deliberately sabotage his team.

Fact remains, Dusty did end up doing so by starting a sub-.300 OBP guy in the leadoff spot, leaving a creaky vet who'd "earned it" in the 3rd spot, mandating that a free-swinging 2B hit cleanup, and pushing the team's best offensive player routinely into the 6th or 7th spot.

Injuries may have played a role in Dusty's decision to play Patterson, but they didn't force his general strategic incompetence. That was his doing and his alone.

[Krusty]

If you sign Taveras to play CF to a two-year deal and Rocco Baldalli to a two-year deal to play LF, that allows time for Drew Stubbs to develop at Louisville in 2009, and allows Dickerson to break in slowly by sharing time in LF and CF. If Baldalli does a Josh Hamilton resurgence, I will be more than happy with that. Taveras? Just get on base and set the table for Votto, Bruce, Phillips, Encarnacion and Baldalli.

[Raisor]

Originally Posted by Krusty

If you sign Taveras to play CF to a two-year deal .

Woah there cowboy.

You have GOT to be kidding.

Right?

Please?

Taveras? Just get on base and set the table for Votto, Bruce, Phillips, Encarnacion and Baldalli.

Except dude has a real problem "just" getting on base.

[Cyclone792]

Signing Willy Taveras is a Bengaldom move. It would literally have Mike Brown written all over it. Then again, maybe the Reds are trying to one-up the Bengals with stupidity and this would be part of the long-term plan.

[Ltlabner]

Originally Posted by Krusty

Taveras? Just get on base and set the table for Votto, Bruce, Phillips, Encarnacion and Baldalli.

Except the guy has a real history of not getting on base.

And when he's on base he's more likely to run us out of an inning than increase his value.

[Caveat Emperor]

Originally Posted by Krusty

If you sign Taveras to play CF to a two-year deal and Rocco Baldalli to a two-year deal to play LF, that allows time for Drew Stubbs to develop at Louisville in 2009, and allows Dickerson to break in slowly by sharing time in LF and CF.

Above and beyond the obvious facts about Willy Taveras and his negative overall value to the team -- the fact is Chris Dickerson is already going to be 27 years old at the start of the 2009 season.

He doesn't have time to "break in slowly." He is what he is at this point, and the Reds should either make use of that or move on with other options and relegate him to bench duty.