Reds sign Willy Taveras to 2 year deal....

[_Sir_Charles_]

Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor

Maybe if I post this here, someone else will read it.

Credit goes to Raisor (as credit should for all great developments in baseball thought and life):

I wasn't saying that Taveras is a great player, or that he's the answer to our problems. But a career best year followed by a career worst year will tend to cause people here to exaggerate his flaws IMO. I'm not going to get into a debate about the numbers because I simply don't know enough about the saberstats as everyone else here. But this is a signing to improve the depth of the team that is drastically short on outfielders. This is a signing to give our young players time to develop. This is a signing to improve our outfield defense and team speed/baserunning, 2 areas that were so far beyond pathetic last year that I'm amazed it hasn't been focused on more.

Everyone seems to want us to replace the run production lost by Dunn leaving. I get that. But what I don't think everyone else gets is that Jocketty isn't looking to replace that. He's wanting to change the formula. Instead of increasing our run production, how about lowering the number of runs allowed instead? Increased defense alone will improve the results of our pitching staff. You can win with small ball if you've got great pitching. That's a given. But can we play effective small ball? That remains to be seen. But adding speed and defense is certainly a step in that direction wouldn't you agree?

Everyone seems to be griping that this is like some devastating move to the franchise and I just don't get that. We didn't lose anything with this signing. We didn't have a leadoff man, we didn't have enough OF'ers, and we didn't have a serious SB threat. Now we do and it didn't cost us anything other than some dough. Would I have preferred a BETTER player? Sure, but he is NOT Patterson. (this wasn't aimed at you...just ranting in general)

[Krusty]

I got to run. Like I said I never seen such over-reaction to a free agent signing for a ballplayer that won't be here two years from now. But I have come to the conclusion on this site, no matter the name you throw out there; the trade proposal you post; or the free agent signing or trade the Reds make, it will never be right. Posters will find a reason not to like the acquisition before accepting it.

See eight years of losing does that to a fan base. Everything is negative. Instead of looking at the positives, it is easier to look at the negatives because it is easier to point the finger at a team's futility. There was a reason why Walt Jocketty was put in charge. His track record speaks for itself. I will give the man the benefit of doubt. Why? Because you hope one day things finally turns around.

[Raisor]

Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_

But what I don't think everyone else gets is that Jocketty isn't looking to replace that. He's wanting to change the formula. Instead of increasing our run production, how about lowering the number of runs allowed instead? Increased defense alone will improve the results of our pitching staff. You can win with small ball if you've got great pitching.

If the Reds can somehow equal their Runs Scored from last year (and I don't think that's close to a given, but let's just hope) they would have to give up 200 less runs then last year to make the playoffs.
Be somewhere in the 590-600 RA area.

Yeah, I don't see that happening either.

[dougdirt]

Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_

I wasn't saying that Taveras is a great player, or that he's the answer to our problems. But a career best year followed by a career worst year will tend to cause people here to exaggerate his flaws IMO. I'm not going to get into a debate about the numbers because I simply don't know enough about the saberstats as everyone else here. But this is a signing to improve the depth of the team that is drastically short on outfielders. This is a signing to give our young players time to develop. This is a signing to improve our outfield defense and team speed/baserunning, 2 areas that were so far beyond pathetic last year that I'm amazed it hasn't been focused on more.

Everyone seems to want us to replace the run production lost by Dunn leaving. I get that. But what I don't think everyone else gets is that Jocketty isn't looking to replace that. He's wanting to change the formula. Instead of increasing our run production, how about lowering the number of runs allowed instead? Increased defense alone will improve the results of our pitching staff. You can win with small ball if you've got great pitching. That's a given. But can we play effective small ball? That remains to be seen. But adding speed and defense is certainly a step in that direction wouldn't you agree?

Everyone seems to be griping that this is like some devastating move to the franchise and I just don't get that. We didn't lose anything with this signing. We didn't have a leadoff man, we didn't have enough OF'ers, and we didn't have a serious SB threat. Now we do and it didn't cost us anything other than some dough. Would I have preferred a BETTER player? Sure, but he is NOT Patterson. (this wasn't aimed at you...just ranting in general)

Patterson has a better career OPS+ than Taveras and its not all that close.

As for Taveras coming off his career worst with his career best before comment.... the problem is his career best still didn't make him an average major league center fielder. We just gave a 2 year deal to a guy whose career best year made him slightly below average at the second weakest hitting position on the field.

[The_jbh]

I really don't have a major problem with the signing, unless we go with a starting OF of Dickerson Taveras and Bruce.... I don't think Walt is anywhere near done.

I think its a good deal if we plan on platooning Taveras and Dickerson. Dickerson struggles to stay healthy and is streaky... I think it would be good to have him only play against righties.


I think the major problem with this board's response is everyone has too big of a "pitched tent" for Chris Dickerson. He will be on the squad and will have the opportunity to play himself into the line up... but lets be honest here... hes a at best major league average OF... We've only seen him in limited time and I personally would have a major problem writing his name into the line up with a pen. He is just not someone I push all in on.

I see Taveras and Dickerson as the 3rd/4th OFs with another big deal for a LF.

[icehole3]

Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_

Everyone seems to be griping that this is like some devastating move to the franchise and I just don't get that. We didn't lose anything with this signing. We didn't have a leadoff man, we didn't have enough OF'ers, and we didn't have a serious SB threat. Now we do and it didn't cost us anything other than some dough. Would I have preferred a BETTER player? Sure, but he is NOT Patterson. (this wasn't aimed at you...just ranting in general)

Thats basically my point, they seem to think Taveras has moved in with Dusty's daughter. They needed OFs and it beats rushing guys thru the system.

[Always Red]

Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor

Tell me how it's not that bad?

This is a team that fell 100 runs short in the run differential last season AND lost it's biggest run producer.

This is a team in desperate need of good players, and they just signed one that could only be generously described as well below average.

This simple math above explains it all.

I'm not jumping off a bridge, but I am definitely not excited by this signing. The only good thing is that it cost the Reds nary a player in return.

Unless a big bat is added in LF (and I doubt it will at this point), this team is left with a lot of "hoping" in order to improve in 2009. As in hoping that Cueto progresses, Volquez repeats his fine year, and Harang returns to 2007 form. Hoping that Edwin continues to improve with the bat and has learned how to play 3B in the offseason. Hoping that Gonzalez is finally healthy, physically and emotionally. Hoping that Taveras returns to his 2007 numbers. Hoping the bullpen.... that's a lot of hope.

Good thing that hope springs eternal!

[guttle11]

Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor

Tell me how it's not that bad?

This is a team that fell 100 runs short in the run differential last season AND lost it's biggest run producer.

This is a team in desperate need of good players, and they just signed one that could only be generously described as well below average.

And that keeps them from acquiring those good players how exactly?

The answer is that it doesn't. There are still options in LF, and options for the SS positions. They still have pieces to work a trade if they so choose. That will determine the Reds offseason, not signing a guy for a likely platoon in CF.

[NC Reds]

Lather, rinse, repeat.

More AB's wasted at the top of the order. I can't wait to hear Dusty tout his speed.

[icehole3]

Originally Posted by dougdirt

Patterson has a better career OPS+ than Taveras and its not all that close.

As for Taveras coming off his career worst with his career best before comment.... the problem is his career best still didn't make him an average major league center fielder. We just gave a 2 year deal to a guy whose career best year made him slightly below average at the second weakest hitting position on the field.

Doug, youre well respected in my book, whats the difference between Taveras and Freel, if it's huge then I understand the belly ache, if not then its replacing Freel with Taveras in my book.

[Raisor]

Originally Posted by guttle11

That will determine the Reds offseason, not signing a guy for a likely platoon in CF.

A) Can you point me to anything that says that Willy T will be a platoon player?

b) he doesn't have any kind of platoon split, he's equally horrible against both RHP and LHP.

[Jpup]

Originally Posted by icehole3

Doug, youre well respected in my book, whats the difference between Taveras and Freel, if it's huge then I understand the belly ache, if not then its replacing Freel with Taveras in my book.

Freel got on base at a decent clip. You ever think that you might be wrong?

[pahster]

Originally Posted by NC Reds

Lather, rinse, repeat.

More AB's wasted at the top of the order. I can't wait to hear Dusty tout his speed.

He's no base clogger, dude.

[icehole3]

Originally Posted by Always Red

This simple math above explains it all.

I'm not jumping off a bridge, but I am definitely not excited by this signing. The only good thing is that it cost the Reds nary a player in return.

Unless a big bat is added in LF (and I doubt it will at this point), this team is left with a lot of "hoping" in order to improve in 2009. As in hoping that Cueto progresses, Volquez repeats his fine year, and Harang returns to 2007 form. Hoping that Edwin continues to improve with the bat and has learned how to play 3B in the offseason. Hoping that Gonzalez is finally healthy, physically and emotionally. Hoping that Taveras returns to his 2007 numbers. Hoping the bullpen.... that's a lot of hope.

Good thing that hope springs eternal!

You thought we we're going to compete with the Yankees, did ya?

[Krusty]

Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_

I wasn't saying that Taveras is a great player, or that he's the answer to our problems. But a career best year followed by a career worst year will tend to cause people here to exaggerate his flaws IMO. I'm not going to get into a debate about the numbers because I simply don't know enough about the saberstats as everyone else here. But this is a signing to improve the depth of the team that is drastically short on outfielders. This is a signing to give our young players time to develop. This is a signing to improve our outfield defense and team speed/baserunning, 2 areas that were so far beyond pathetic last year that I'm amazed it hasn't been focused on more.

Everyone seems to want us to replace the run production lost by Dunn leaving. I get that. But what I don't think everyone else gets is that Jocketty isn't looking to replace that. He's wanting to change the formula. Instead of increasing our run production, how about lowering the number of runs allowed instead? Increased defense alone will improve the results of our pitching staff. You can win with small ball if you've got great pitching. That's a given. But can we play effective small ball? That remains to be seen. But adding speed and defense is certainly a step in that direction wouldn't you agree?

Everyone seems to be griping that this is like some devastating move to the franchise and I just don't get that. We didn't lose anything with this signing. We didn't have a leadoff man, we didn't have enough OF'ers, and we didn't have a serious SB threat. Now we do and it didn't cost us anything other than some dough. Would I have preferred a BETTER player? Sure, but he is NOT Patterson. (this wasn't aimed at you...just ranting in general)

Amen brother. I couldn't have said it or posted any better.