Reds sign Willy Taveras to 2 year deal....

[Will M]

Originally Posted by camisadelgolf

The fact that Owings could be available on the bench means that Taveras will be taking at-bats from one more player who is more worthy.

not so. the 2007 version of WT should get ABs. the 2008 version should not. again, this is Dusty's job to use him as a defensive sub or pinch runner if we get the 2008 version.

[Kc61]

Originally Posted by TRF

No. A player with a history of repeating .310/.350 I'd at least accept. Call me when Taveras does it more than once. He didn't do it more than once in a park designed for hitters.



Not some years. once. once he had an acceptable OBP. one year in his entire career. He will not be pretty good defensively, because he's never been a good defender. And the Rockies didn't want to arbitrate with him because he wasn't worth it.

More overstatement.

Taveras has a .331 lifetime OBP, which is decent.

Taveras is a good defender in centerfield. No, he's not a top centerfielder like Patterson, but I haven't heard anyone say he's "never been a good defender" except on Redszone.

Maybe the Rockies didn't want to arbitrate with him because he led the league in steals and might get a high salary in arbitration.

Let's see how it works out. Sorry, just not as sure of the future as some around here are.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Originally Posted by Raisor

OK, we are getting someplace now.

How big of a difference is there between a single and a walk? (We can measure this by the way, so there actually IS an answer)

It depends wholly on the situation. You can obviously throw out some stat, but even that will depend upon the situations. To me, it's about creating opportunities. A single creates more options than a walk does in general. OBP does not distinguish between the two. There isn't a stat that determines momentum and the effect of a rally. Walks are a pause in a rally...a hit builds the momentum emotionally.

I understand the formulas, I understand their uses, but I also understand that there isn't a formula to encapsulate a player. Not completely and not in context to his fellow teammates. My eyes do. I place more faith in those.

[camisadelgolf]

Originally Posted by Will M

not so. the 2007 version of WT should get ABs. the 2008 version should not. again, this is Dusty's job to use him as a defensive sub or pinch runner if we get the 2008 version.

Well, we saw what happened when Dusty Baker was given Corey Patterson and Paul Bako--I don't have the faith that he'll have any idea what to do with Taveras. If used properly, Taveras has a small amount of value, but the sad part of that is that there's almost no chance that's going to happen. Even the Reds' GM has clearly implied that Taveras will play center field and lead off.

[Raisor]

Originally Posted by Will M

not so. the 2007 version of WT should get ABs. the 2008 version should not. again, this is Dusty's job to use him as a defensive sub or pinch runner if we get the 2008 version.

And, once again, the 2007 version was still a below average player.

The 2005, 2006, 2008 versions are too awful to even think about.

And he's signed to a two year deal. He's going to get 1200 PA's in those two years, and even at his best (and his best was so far over his head he could see Big Ben from up there) he's still BELOW AVERAGE.

An "average" NL CF is nothing to write home about.

[durl]

Wow, Walt. It appears your reputation of building a World Series franchise have been destroyed with this single signing.

Let's go for an optimistic turn here:

What numbers would Taveras need to put up to be ACCEPTABLE to you naysayers on here? And let's try to keep the "it'll never happen" comments to a minimum. What's done is done so let's talk about what we need to see in order for the deal to be deemed a success.

[TRF]

Originally Posted by Kc61

More overstatement.

Taveras has a .331 lifetime OBP, which is decent.

Taveras is a good defender in centerfield. No, he's not a top centerfielder like Patterson, but I haven't heard anyone say he's "never been a good defender" except on Redszone.

Maybe the Rockies didn't want to arbitrate with him because he led the league in steals and might get a high salary in arbitration.

Let's see how it works out. Sorry, just not as sure of the future as some around here are.

The lifetime OBP is spiked by a career year in 2007.

Everyone on Redszone saying he's a poor defender has been justifying that position with defensive metrics.

The Rockies aren't a small market team. they could have easily afforded Taveras. They didn't want him.

Well, personally I know a crap move when I see one.

[Falls City Beer]

Originally Posted by TRF

The lifetime OBP is spiked by a career year in 2007.

He only appeared in 97 games that year.

The Reds can still be good with Taveras on their roster, but it's going to be that much harder with him there.

[Hap]

The 10 most similar players according to baseball-reference.

I only recognize three names, and none of them ever scared anyone with the bat.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Originally Posted by SteelSD

You've been given 54 months (nine seasons) of three high-IsoD hitters so far, yet you're the one using the rolleyes emoticons and calling the opposing position "insane". That's pretty strong for someone with no evidence to support their theory, don'tcha think?

What theory? All I've said is that players do go stretches when they don't walk. Players who walk a lot still have stretches where they don't as much. They start struggling at the plate and start forcing things. They run up against a string of pitchers who have above average control. I never said that players who hit for average slump more or less than ones with high walk rates. Only that the ones with high walk rates ALSO slump. And that they slump in regards to hits AND to walks. Every player does. It's how long the slumps are that determine how effective a player they are IMO.

Someone just posted Dunn's monthly walk totals and lo and behold, that month of 10 walks stands out. The rest were fairly consistant, but in regards to walks...I'd call that a slump for taking walks.

[Falls City Beer]

Originally Posted by durl

What numbers would Taveras need to put up to be ACCEPTABLE to you naysayers on here? .

He could win the MVP, OB over .400, score 120 runs, and this move will be lampooned regardless. Welcome to the post-split Redszone. Echo-Chambers R Us.

Still, it sure doesn't seem like a very smart move. Certainly an unnecessary one.

[Always Red]

Originally Posted by Hap

The 10 most similar players according to baseball-reference.

I only recognize three names, and none of them ever scared anyone with the bat.

woy was all over it on the 7th post of this thread:

The Dominican Chuck Carr

how does he do that??

[TRF]

Originally Posted by Falls City Beer

He only appeared in 97 games that year.

The Reds can still be good with Taveras on their roster, but it's going to be that much harder with him there.

I mentioned that too. Had he appeared in say 140 games he was more likely to be closer to his career norms than stay on the pace he was for that season. so closer to a .325 OBP than .370.

blech.

[Caveat Emperor]

Originally Posted by Falls City Beer

He could win the MVP, OB over .400, score 120 runs, and this move will be lampooned regardless. Welcome to the post-split Redszone. Echo-Chambers R Us.

It's hard to call it an Echo-Chamber when, really, there isn't much an argument that can be made that Taveras is anything other than a waste of a roster space. The reason you hear things echoing is because it's an issue that most people can reasonably come to the same conclusion on.

Seriously -- if you can make a decent argument for acquiring Taveras as a starting CF / leadoff hitter, then I am all ears.

And no, I don't count any argument that includes the phrase "if used properly" because his role on this team has already been defined by Walt today and by Dusty's history: everyday CF, leadoff hitter.

[Raisor]

Originally Posted by durl

Wow, Walt. It appears your reputation of building a World Series franchise have been destroyed with this single signing.

Let's go for an optimistic turn here:

What numbers would Taveras need to put up to be ACCEPTABLE to you naysayers on here? And let's try to keep the "it'll never happen" comments to a minimum. What's done is done so let's talk about what we need to see in order for the deal to be deemed a success.

If he has a NL average season for a NL centerfielder, I'll be more then happy.

OBP-.333
SLG-.426
OPS-.760

Or roughly, 85-90 Runs Created per 600 PA's.