Reds sign Willy Taveras to 2 year deal....

[_Sir_Charles_]

Originally Posted by remdog

No, I don't disagree---I vehemently disagree. Throughout this whole thread you've been presented with evidence that your position is not likely to prevail. Now, you turn a blind eye to what has been said by Jockety and what Baker has done in the past. (famous shrug) You continue to ignore both. That is the definition of a naive person.

You're certainly welcome to continue on this path but don't be surprised if no one gives creadence to your opinion.

Rem

Fine, disagree. But instead of that, how about you go back and RE-READ what Jocketty stated. He never said that Taveras is the starter or the leadoff hitter.

As for what Baker has done in the past, I don't discount that. Given his tendancies...I wouldn't be surprised if he ended up leading off and playing center. But I also wouldn't be surprised to see Dickerson there if he performed well in ST. Dusty's not an idiot. While you may not like him or his style, he certainly knows the game better than a bunch of message board junkies like us. As does Walt.

I agree with Rem. (Wow)


The more you try to defend this deal, the worse you make your case sound. Today 11:22 PM

Again, the only defense I'm giving this deal is that we've brought in an OF'er for a short term contract and we didn't have to give away any prospects. If he puts up the numbers he did last year and is handed the starting position...I won't be happy. If he reverts to his career norms...I'll be satisfied. But as long as he gives the kids time to develop on the farm...he'll have served his purpose. He's a stopgap. That's the defense of this deal.

And as I've also said numerous times, where's the better option out there right now on the FA market? Keep in mind, they'd need to accept a short term deal for an acceptable amount and they'd need to play solid defense.

[BuckeyeRedleg]

Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine

Our goal was to build on our pitching and improve our defense which helps our pitching.[/url]

Well, we know it didn't improve the defense.

I understand it could be typical GM speak, but what I'm worried about is that Walt actually believes it.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Originally Posted by RedEye

To me, these excerpts offer all but direct evidence that Willy Taveras is the starting CF and leadoff hitter on your 2009 Cincinnati Reds. What's more, if Walt doesn't sign another OF, we can look forward to a Hopper-Dickerson platoon in left!

Awe. some.

All that was saying is that we've got 2 outfielders. Not that he's the starter. Do you seriously think we're only going to carry Hopper, Bruce, Taveras & Dickerson as OF'ers in 2008? Either kids will come up, players will relocate or more will come in from outside. But yes, as things stand TODAY...with only those 4 OF'ers on the roster, it'd be Dickerson/Taveras/Bruce. As of right now, it's all assumptions and then people here running wild with those assumptions.

If Taveras ends up being the 4th outfielder, would people have a problem with it? I doubt it. And after all is said and done, that's almost as likely an outcome as anything.

[BuckeyeRedleg]

Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_

All that was saying is that we've got 2 outfielders. Not that he's the starter. Do you seriously think we're only going to carry Hopper, Bruce, Taveras & Dickerson as OF'ers in 2008? Either kids will come up, players will relocate or more will come in from outside. But yes, as things stand TODAY...with only those 4 OF'ers on the roster, it'd be Dickerson/Taveras/Bruce. As of right now, it's all assumptions and then people here running wild with those assumptions.

If Taveras ends up being the 4th outfielder, would people have a problem with it? I doubt it. And after all is said and done, that's almost as likely an outcome as anything.

You want to place a wager against him leading off in CF on opening day?

[_Sir_Charles_]

Originally Posted by BuckeyeRedleg

Bako/Valentin/Ross logged over 650 plate appearances. Hanigan had 89 PA's and many of those came after Ross was let go and Javy and Bako continued to be Javy and Bako (really bad).

They brought Hanigan up when they felt he was ready. Until he was brought up Dusty had no choice but to play the vets. It's the GM's call on when to bring guys up, right? Once Hanigan came up, he got MORE than his fair share of the starts. I certainly wouldn't want them to simply dump it ALL on him as a rook. It's just that I was always hearing that Dusty would just sit the kids and put them to sleep. I didn't see that at all in 2008.

[RedEye]

Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_

All that was saying is that we've got 2 outfielders. Not that he's the starter. Do you seriously think we're only going to carry Hopper, Bruce, Taveras & Dickerson as OF'ers in 2008? Either kids will come up, players will relocate or more will come in from outside. But yes, as things stand TODAY...with only those 4 OF'ers on the roster, it'd be Dickerson/Taveras/Bruce. As of right now, it's all assumptions and then people here running wild with those assumptions.

My claim is based on only one wild assumption--that Walt is telling the truth here:

"With Bruce and Taveras, we have two of our outfield spots filled," Jocketty said.

Willy Taveras will be the starting Reds CF in 2009. Like it or lump it.

[BuckeyeRedleg]

Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_

They brought Hanigan up when they felt he was ready. Until he was brought up Dusty had no choice but to play the vets. It's the GM's call on when to bring guys up, right? Once Hanigan came up, he got MORE than his fair share of the starts. I certainly wouldn't want them to simply dump it ALL on him as a rook. It's just that I was always hearing that Dusty would just sit the kids and put them to sleep. I didn't see that at all in 2008.

Where in any of this does this lead you to make the statement you made below?

Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_

People can say what they want about Dusty, but I've seen no evidence that he starts vets over kids. In fact, I saw exactly the opposite in 2008.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Originally Posted by BuckeyeRedleg

Well, we know it didn't improve the defense.

I understand it could be typical GM speak, but what I'm worried about is that Walt actually believes it.

Taveras isn't an improvement over Hopper? Because that's who our other option was on the current roster. And despite what some say here, I think Taveras is a very good defender. I didn't see him much in Colorado, but I thought he did an excellent job for Houston defensively. He's better than Junior was recently, he's better than Freel, he's better than Hopper, and he's better than Hairston. Only Hamilton & Patterson had better CF defense in recent years as I recall. Patterson is gone (thank god), and there is no Hamiton available that I see on the market. It's time to take what you can get to bide your time for the farm to produce.

[BuckeyeRedleg]

Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_

Taveras isn't an improvement over Hopper?

No.

And he's definitely not an improvement (in CF) over one Mr. Corey Patterson.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Originally Posted by BuckeyeRedleg

Where in any of this does this lead you to make the statement you made below?

Simple. When he had a kid and a vet on the roster at the same time, he was playing the kid just as much (if not more) than the vet.

Votto & Hatteberg...Votto got the nod.
Bruce & Griffey...quite often, Bruce got the nod...or someone else got bumped so Bruce could get the start.
Hanigan & Bako...fairly even PT.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Originally Posted by BuckeyeRedleg

No.

And he's definitely not an improvement (in CF) over one Mr. Corey Patterson.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I think he's much better than Hopper defensively. And while Patterson has the strong edge defensively, in all the other areas Taveras has the edge (except in HR's).

[BuckeyeRedleg]

Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_

He's better than Junior was recently,

Who isn't?

Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_

he's better than Freel, he's better than Hopper, and he's better than Hairston.

Honestly, I don't think he is.

[Reds Nd2]

Originally Posted by BoydsOfSummer

My girlfriend and her son are Red Sox fans. Maybe it's time....

My girlfriend and her two daughters don't even like baseball. But her youngest daughter did watch some of the playoffs with me this year and the girlfriend is up for going to some minor league games next season. So there is still hope.

Originally Posted by Ron Madden

BF and his buddies over at Reds.com love this move.


That should tell ya somethin'.

Reds.com still has a message board? Who new? I would have thought that place would have imploded by the weight of it's own B.S. by now.

[BuckeyeRedleg]

Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_

And while Patterson has the strong edge defensively, in all the other areas Taveras has the edge (except in HR's).

In what other areas? SB's? That's it.

[Reds Nd2]

Originally Posted by Spitball

I'm not saying I like the Willy T. signing, but I'm not going to let his signing ruin my outlook for 2009-2010.

In four full seasons he has played on three winning teams. He has appeared in two World series.

The Reds would have been better off signing some of the other twenty-four guys on those winning teams.