Reds sign Willy Taveras to 2 year deal....

[WVRedsFan]

I was a tad disappointed with Willy's acquisition. Not enough to give up my fandom, but disappointed nonetheless. I go back to the days of Vada Pinson when a center fielder, a good defensive center fielder could also hit 15-20 HR's. I'm still not sold on whether or not Traveras is a good defensive CF player, but I look at his statistics over his career and see Ryan Freel with a brain. While Traveras has averaged over 40 SB's per year and gets caught not so often (or make bone-headed baserunning errors) as Freel, the RBI and OBP stats are close. I wanted more. In these troubled economic times, I guess a Willie Mays replacement wasn't available. Oh well.

I'm still waiting for offense. With Dunn and Griffey gone, we need to replace +/- 180 RBI's in this lineup. You can have all the defense and pitching you want, but you must score runs and we haven't improved that much at all.

[BuckeyeRedleg]

Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_

Bruce & Griffey...quite often, Bruce got the nod...or someone else got bumped so Bruce could get the start.

Before he was traded, Griffey got more than 430 plate appearances.

[Reds Nd2]

Originally Posted by MartyFan

I could see Willy doing better here in Cincinnati than he did in Colorado defensively.

How exactly? He's moving into a park where his speed won't be as valuable on defense as it was in his former home.

[Reds Nd2]

Originally Posted by RBA

This is making my not renewing MLB Extra Innings decision a little easier.

There's still another twenty-nine teams to watch. With black out rules what they are, it makes my decision to switch from MLB.tv to Extra Innings a bit easier though.

[Reds Nd2]

Originally Posted by M2

You act like getting the most consistently underproductive CF in baseball during the past decade is a bad thing.

Willy Taveras, your starting CF for Hacking Mass 2009.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Originally Posted by BuckeyeRedleg

In what other areas? SB's? That's it.

Umm...let's see. Better hitter for average, draws more walks, strikes out less. He even hits for a better OBP, and we all know how much RZ'ers love that stat. :O) Corey hits more dingers and plays better defense, that's it. It's his massive suckitude in the other areas that throws his name out of the equation.

[REDREAD]

Originally Posted by M2

The real issue is can he score a lot of runs at the top of the lineup and there really isn't any "issue" there. He never has and he's almost guaranteed not to do it in a Reds uniform. OB is just the leading reason why he won't do it.

Yes, I agree with this. He is not the ideal leadoff hitter by any means.

The Reds didn't have any leadoff hitter before this signing. If we get the 2007 version of Willy T, we have one. If we get the 2008 version, we have a horrible leadoff hitter if they chose to use Willly T like that.

Personally, I can't see why some people are threatening to stop watching the Reds over this move. There really wasn't many alternatives. Dorn and Stubbs would hit worse. We needed to sign some OF just to field a team next year. We needed a guy that could play CF in case of injures.

As long as the $$ amount was reasonable, this signing isn't a huge deal. It's good to give Dickerson some competition. Also, it appears that Walt is having a very difficult time trading our trade bait (ie Homer and second teir prospects) for legitimate OF talent. No one wants to trade Votto and the other good young players, so there's not a whole lot of alternatives.

I did get a laugh at the poster that said this eliminates us from playoff competition. No offense to him, but we were eliminated from the 2009 playoff competition as soon as the 2008 season ended. Too many holes to fill. Even if we sold off the entire farm to try to win now, it would not be possible unless Cast was willing to dump 500 million in free agency.

Willy T gives us some depth until something better comes along. I'm guessing his salary is low enough that he can be a backup player when a better option comes along. It's not going to cripple us. He might surprise us with a decent year next year. Maybe not.

[D-Man]

Originally Posted by Raisor

How about if I can show that 08 was just Willy returning to his norm?

Let me use a slightly different number, RC per 100 PA.

05 11.01 (66.06 per 600 pa)
06 11.11 (66.66 per 600 pa)
07 14.09 (84.54 per 600 pa)
08 10.54 (63.24 per 600 PA)

Where do you get your RC numbers? Hardball Times shows data that is much different than what you have presented. Consequently, I interpret it much differently.

http://www.hardballtimes.com/thtstat...irstName=Willy

Year	RC	PA	RC/100	RC/600
2005	63	635	9.92	59.53
2006	65	587	11.07	66.44
2007	52	408	12.75	76.47
2008	47	538	8.74	52.42
Total	227	2168	10.47	62.82

His 2007 and 2008 production were both out of line w/ career norms, but the net effect of both years is close to his career average for RC.

This isn't the move I would have made, but the Reds have needed a legit flycatcher in CF for some time. I think Taveras brings good (potentially great) defensive attributes to the table. (1) He made a lot of out-of-zone (OOZ) plays in 2008, which suggests that he can cover a lot of ground. Adjusted for innings, he made 75 OOZ plays per 1,000 innings, whereas Reds CFers made 67. [note: there may be methodological problems with comparing OOZ data from players on different teams, so we need to be cautious here.] (2) He has one of the best outfield arms in the business. John Walsh is smarter than all of us, and his work suggests Taveras saved ~6 runs per 200 opportunities in each of 2007 and 2008.

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/ar...-arms-of-2007/
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/ar...-arms-of-2006/

The net effect of (1) and (2) above is that we should see a decline in extra-base hits and, by extension, big innings.

My biggest concern is Dusty's penchant for using CFer in the leadoff position. Taveras could be useful manufacturing runs toward the bottom half of the lineup, but he has no business leading off.

[Tom Servo]

Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine

The Yankees outfield glut (Nick Swisher and Xavier Nady): "We’ve had some discussions, I wouldn’t say anything's close."

Not with that attitude, Walt! Go get Swisher and make all (most) of us feel a bit better.


Hell at this point I'd be happy with Nady.

[BuckeyeRedleg]

Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_

Umm...let's see. Better hitter for average, draws more walks, strikes out less. He even hits for a better OBP, and we all know how much RZ'ers love that stat. :O) Corey hits more dingers and plays better defense, that's it. It's his massive suckitude in the other areas that throws his name out of the equation.

Walk difference is slim.

OPS+

Patterson +79
Taveras +72

[REDREAD]

Originally Posted by Kc61

Taveras just turned 27 and has played four years.

Yes, Tavaras and Dickerson are about the same age.
The difference is that Tavaras has been playing MLB for the past 4 years.
Yet, Tavaras can't improve/bounce back, but some have pretty high hopes for Dickerson.

I agree with you that Tavaras' defense in CF is certainly adequate.
Walt isn't stupid, despite what some people think.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Originally Posted by BuckeyeRedleg

Before he was traded, Griffey got more than 430 plate appearances.

And Bruce wasn't here for all of that either, was he? He didn't come up until later. Bruce also got lots of starts over vets Patterson & Freel too. He would also sit Junior down after 2 or 3 ab's and swap Bruce over to Right in place of Junior. Hardly vet favoritism.

My point is that I didn't see the kids sitting on the bench while the vets played...just because they were vets. That's what was always said about Dusty's tendencies.

[BuckeyeRedleg]

Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_

And Bruce wasn't here for all of that either, was he? He didn't come up until later. Bruce also got lots of starts over vets Patterson & Freel too. He would also sit Junior down after 2 or 3 ab's and swap Bruce over to Right in place of Junior. Hardly vet favoritism.

And yet hardly the opposite (playing the kids over vets) which is what you posted.

[WVRedsFan]

Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_

And Bruce wasn't here for all of that either, was he? He didn't come up until later. Bruce also got lots of starts over vets Patterson & Freel too. He would also sit Junior down after 2 or 3 ab's and swap Bruce over to Right in place of Junior. Hardly vet favoritism.

My point is that I didn't see the kids sitting on the bench while the vets played...just because they were vets. That's what was always said about Dusty's tendencies.

Give it up Sir Charles. Willy is the new whipping boy. I'm not happy with this, but it's better than the alternative. And we still haven't found any offense. Maybe we should trade for another pitcher? That's the ticket. More pitching so we can lose more 2-1 games?

Forgive me.

[BuckeyeRedleg]

Originally Posted by WVRedsFan

Give it up Sir Charles. Willy is the new whipping boy. I'm not happy with this, but it's better than the alternative. And we still haven't found any offense. Maybe we should trade for another pitcher? That's the ticket. More pitching so we can lose more 2-1 games?

Forgive me.

Hey, WV. Way to take it to my Bucks today. Wow. That was a butt kicking.