Reds sign Willy Taveras to 2 year deal....

[Cyclone792]

Originally Posted by Falls City Beer

I don't know a single poster on this side of the board who thinks the Reds will contend in 2009.

It strikes me as silly to be in favor of Willy Taveras if you're preparing for 75 wins.

[Falls City Beer]

Originally Posted by Cyclone792

It strikes me as silly to be in favor of Willy Taveras if you're preparing for 75 wins.

How many were in favor of Wily T--on this side of the board? I think I counted three people.

Let's not kid ourselves, though: when the vaunted farm ain't doin' much by way of providing everyday players, GMs can do some less than desirable things to fill out a roster on the nickels and dimes left over in payroll.

[Caveat Emperor]

Originally Posted by Falls City Beer

How many were in favor of Wily T--on this side of the board? I think I counted three people.

And your point is?

There isn't a single logical argument to be made that ends with "...and, in conclusion, I feel Willy Taveras will be a valuable addition to the starting lineup."

If you can find me one and back it up, I'm willing to listen. Until then, I'll take the fact that there are only 3 people in favor of Taveras on this board as a compliment to the overall baseball acumen of the posters here.

[Falls City Beer]

Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor

And your point is?

There isn't a single logical argument to be made that ends with "...and, in conclusion, I feel Willy Taveras will be a valuable addition to the starting lineup."

If you can find me one and back it up, I'm willing to listen. Until then, I'll take the fact that there are only 3 people in favor of Taveras on this board as a compliment to the overall baseball acumen of the posters here.

My point is that there's not "so many people" who don't grasp the Reds' situation, as Cyclone claimed. I think almost everyone here grasps their situation.

[OnBaseMachine]

Originally Posted by Falls City Beer

Let's not kid ourselves, though: when the vaunted farm ain't doin' much by way of providing everyday players, GMs can do some less than desirable things to fill out a roster on the nickels and dimes left over in payroll.

Jay Bruce, Joey Votto, Edwin Encarnacion (I know, but the Reds developed him), and Chris Dickerson are all homegrown. As was Adam Dunn. The Reds flipped a prospect for Phillips. Very rarely do you find a team with eight homegrown position players.

[Will M]

Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor

And your point is?

There isn't a single logical argument to be made that ends with "...and, in conclusion, I feel Willy Taveras will be a valuable addition to the starting lineup."

If you can find me one and back it up, I'm willing to listen. Until then, I'll take the fact that there are only 3 people in favor of Taveras on this board as a compliment to the overall baseball acumen of the posters here.

IF Taveras sucks like its 2008 then he should be a bench player. as a 25th man he does add some value to the team. ie defensive sub and pinch runner.

IF he can get his OBP up to 2007 levels then Dusty can put a bat in his hands. the idea that WT is going to get 600 ABs if he plays like he did last year is a bit odd to me. yes i know Patterson played a lot last year but part of that was due to the fact that the team was so undermanned.

[RedsManRick]

Originally Posted by Falls City Beer

How many were in favor of Wily T--on this side of the board? I think I counted three people.

Let's not kid ourselves, though: when the vaunted farm ain't doin' much by way of providing everyday players, GMs can do some less than desirable things to fill out a roster on the nickels and dimes left over in payroll.

The base of below market and highly productive talent in the rotation and lineup would have allowed for this team to be competitive in the 09-10 window given the right set of additions -- ones which could have been made within a reasonable payroll allowance and willingness to trade possible future production for present production.

To date, the Reds approach has been to add marginal talent and pray. If it's not going to happen in 2009-2010, then why waste your money on Tavares -- just play Dickerson or Hopper and be done with it. If you're trying to win in 2009-2010 and you know you need to improve both offensively and defensively, then how does adding Willy Taveras help? Regardless of what you're trying to accomplish in 2009, adding Taveras doesn't seem to make any sense.

[mth123]

Originally Posted by Will M

IF Taveras sucks like its 2008 then he should be a bench player. as a 25th man he does add some value to the team. ie defensive sub and pinch runner.

IF he can get his OBP up to 2007 levels then Dusty can put a bat in his hands. the idea that WT is going to get 600 ABs if he plays like he did last year is a bit odd to me. yes i know Patterson played a lot last year but part of that was due to the fact that the team was so undermanned.

Its odd to all of us. Its the reason for the outrage. But Walt annointed him CF and Lead-off hitter. He specifically said that two of the OF spots were filled with Bruce and Taveras and LF is still to be filled.

So, if his awful 2008 is good enough to get him a 2 year deal where he is named the starter, how bad does he have to be to lose that spot? I think its chiseled in stone.

[Cyclone792]

Originally Posted by Falls City Beer

My point is that there's not "so many people" who don't grasp the Reds' situation, as Cyclone claimed. I think almost everyone here grasps their situation.

Originally Posted by Falls City Beer

How many were in favor of Wily T--on this side of the board? I think I counted three people.

Let's not kid ourselves, though: when the vaunted farm ain't doin' much by way of providing everyday players, GMs can do some less than desirable things to fill out a roster on the nickels and dimes left over in payroll.

You miscounted by 25 then.

And FWIW, I wasn't talking about this board anyway. I was talking about this city.

[SteelSD]

Originally Posted by Falls City Beer

How many were in favor of Wily T--on this side of the board? I think I counted three people.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73156

28 people wanted him here. Although I do realize that number may have dropped since then because what seems like a good idea at the time sometimes seems a lot worse when it actually happens.

[OnBaseMachine]

I wouldn't mind as much if Taveras was only being brought in to be the 5th outfielder. He could provide a little value as a defensive replacement/pinch runner/sac bunter when needed. It's the fact that he's basically already been anointed the starter and lead off man that upsets me. I just hope Jocketty has a short leash with him if/when he stinks up the place.

[Marc D]

Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine

I wouldn't mind as much if Taveras was only being brought in to be the 5th outfielder. He could provide a little value as a defensive replacement/pinch runner/sac bunter when needed. It's the fact that he's basically already been anointed the starter and lead off man that upsets me. I just hope Jocketty has a short leash with him if/when he stinks up the place.

Its a good thing we have a manager like Dusty that we can count on to use him correctly huh?

[westofyou]

Originally Posted by SteelSD

what seems like a good idea at the time sometimes seems a lot worse when it actually happens.

Incidents that come to mind often are prefaced with such statements as:

If he can learn to take a walk...

If he doesn't hit in the air...

If he can stay healthy....

These of course are equal to the infamous last line of many a daredevil and teenager.... Hey Guys, check this out.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Originally Posted by Falls City Beer

I don't know a single poster on this side of the board who thinks the Reds will contend in 2009.

*raises hand*

Contend, yes. Reach playoffs, no.

[Kc61]

Originally Posted by Falls City Beer

How many were in favor of Wily T--on this side of the board? I think I counted three people.

Let's not kid ourselves, though: when the vaunted farm ain't doin' much by way of providing everyday players, GMs can do some less than desirable things to fill out a roster on the nickels and dimes left over in payroll.

Frankly, as one of the three, I think some fans aren't being realistic.

The Reds have many holes. Their essential philosophy seems to be "go young." They spent a lot of dough on the draft and international signings this year. They obviously couldn't fill their many holes with expensive players at all vacant positions.

I can see the Reds' reluctance just to hand over centerfield to Chris Dickerson. I remember all the minor league forum discussions about he is a fourth outfielder type, has a very high strikeout rate. In fact, when Stubbs looked like a possible backup, fans were comparing him with Chris Dickerson.

So the Reds gambled on Taveras, a guy with great speed and base running ability, who is only 27, and who started in center for two World Series teams. The challenge will be to get his OBP up.

OBP is important, but Taveras has shown that, in a given year, he can get on base. The Reds will have to work on this with him.

But if he gets his OBP up to about .340, even .335, he can be a very effective weapon for the Reds. I've seen his impact on games when he is going well, and it's a helpful dimension.

I still think the Reds owe the fans one after giving up Dunn and they need to get a real good hitter in left field. I'll be disappointed if they don't.

But this Taveras thing could work out ok. I disagree with the alarm of this thread.