Is George Foster worthy of the Hall of Fame?

[Sea Ray]

Originally Posted by George Anderson

The standard for making the HOF is 3,000 hits or 500 HR's. I would have no problem seeing Foster or Rice make the HOF had they achieved these feats but since they didn't IMO their isn't enough in the other parts of their careers to push them over the edge for induction.

Just as an aside, do you support Palmiero for the Hall?

I'm with you on the 3000 hits but in the steroid era, I'm not a fan of 500 HRs getting an automatic pass to Cooperstown. I'm not even sure 600 HRs does it. Didn't Sammy get to 600 HRs?

[George Anderson]

Originally Posted by Sea Ray

Just as an aside, do you support Palmiero for the Hall?

I'm with you on the 3000 hits but in the steroid era, I'm not a fan of 500 HRs getting an automatic pass to Cooperstown. I'm not even sure 600 HRs does it. Didn't Sammy get to 600 HRs?

No I don't support Palmiero or anyone else who tested positive for performance enhanced drugs. Having said that Bonds for example was IMO a HOFer before he obviously did the performance enhanced drugs so I would have no problem seeing Bonds get in.

You are right on the 500 home runs. With how the way the game has changed you will see more and more players hit the 500 mark so I think the bar needs to be set a little higher.

It could have been interesting though had Harold Baines reached 3,000 hits. If I recall he fell a few hundred short, but I just can't see him in as worthy of the HOF even if he had reached the magic 3,000 hit mark.

[George Anderson]

Originally Posted by Sea Ray

Yeah, I see your point but keep in mind guys like Maris got a lot more consideration for the Hall than Foster did. Foster's paltry 5% is a little weak IMO.

Had Foster played for the beloved Bronx Bombers, he would have received many more votes than he did.

[RedEye]

Originally Posted by Sea Ray

Just as an aside, do you support Palmiero for the Hall?

I'm with you on the 3000 hits but in the steroid era, I'm not a fan of 500 HRs getting an automatic pass to Cooperstown. I'm not even sure 600 HRs does it. Didn't Sammy get to 600 HRs?

I think it is a mistake to assume the steroids didn't also help him to attain 3,000 hits. A lot of the advantage of PED's lies in the way they help players recover from injury. No telling whether Palmeiro could have had the same longevity without them.

If you vote Raffy for the Hall, you are voting with full knowledge that ALL of his stats could have been--and probably were--tainted in some way by his use of drugs. That doesn't necessarily mean he shouldn't get a vote any more than another member of his generation (many of whom probably also used but were never caught). It just means that voters have one heck of a conundrum on their hands for players in the steroids era.

[cincinnati chili]

Originally Posted by RedsBaron

Jim Rice is expected to be inducted into the HOF in a few weeks.

Really? I wouldn't put money on that. Rice came so close to making it last year though that I'm convinced that if he was half as personable and quotable with the media as George Foster he would have made it in years ago.

"I don't know why people like the home run so much. A home run is over as soon as it starts. The triple is the most exciting play of the game. A triple is like meeting a woman who excites you, spending the evening talking and getting more excited, then taking her home. It drags on and on. You're never sure how it's going to turn out." - George Foster (1978)
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/play...hp?p=fostege01

[RedsBaron]

Rice got about 72% of the vote last year. I believe that every player who ever got that close to the 75% required for induction has eventually made the HOF, although a few had to do it via the Veterans Committee. I'd guess that Rice has at least a fifty-fifty chance of being inducted this year, his final year on the ballot.

[Tony Cloninger]

Foster's 1979 season was cut short by injuries ....and that cost him his 4th straight RBI title......which he could have done despite missing about 40 games.

Hack Wilson in the HOF? If he is....he does not belong either....beacuse i think you compare his stats and small window of dominance....and you have a Foster clone. This is going by what the average was at that time in comparison to Foster's time.

[pahster]

Originally Posted by Tony Cloninger

Hack Wilson in the HOF? If he is....he does not belong either....beacuse i think you compare his stats and small window of dominance....and you have a Foster clone. This is going by what the average was at that time in comparison to Foster's time.

Wilson had a career OPS+ of 144 compared to Foster's 126. The former was a much better hitter.

[westofyou]

Fosters best 8 years vs Wilsons best 8 years

1975-1982

YEAR TEAM         AGE G    AB    R    H    2B  3B  HR   HR%   RBI  BB   SO   SB   CS  AVG   SLG  OBA   OPS
1975 Reds         26  134   463   71  139  24   4  23   4.97   78   40   73    2   1  .300  .518  .356  .875 
1976 Reds         27  144   562   86  172  21   9  29   5.16  121   52   89   17   3  .306  .530  .364  .894 
1977 Reds         28  158   615  124  197  31   2  52   8.46  149   61  107    6   4  .320  .631  .382 1.013 
1978 Reds         29  158   604   97  170  26   7  40   6.62  120   70  138    4   4  .281  .546  .360  .906 
1979 Reds         30  121   440   68  133  18   3  30   6.82   98   59  105    0   2  .302  .561  .386  .948 
1980 Reds         31  144   528   79  144  21   5  25   4.73   93   75   99    1   0  .273  .473  .362  .835 
1981 Reds         32  108   414   64  122  23   2  22   5.31   90   51   75    4   0  .295  .519  .373  .892 
1982 Mets         33  151   550   64  136  23   2  13   2.36   70   50  123    1   1  .247  .367  .309  .676 
     TOTALS          1118  4176  653 1213 187  34 234   5.60  819  458  809   35  15  .290  .520  .361  .881 
     LG AVERAGE            3986  499 1058 178  31  83   2.08  463  392  547  100  49  .265  .388  .332  .720 
     POS AVERAGE           4033  543 1106 183  36 101   2.50  508  413  629  131  59  .274  .413  .342  .755 

YEAR TEAM          RC   RCAA  RCAP OWP   RC/G   TB   EBH  ISO   SEC  BPA  IBB HBP SAC  SF GIDP OUTS  PA   POS
1975 Reds           81   22   19  .634   6.36  240   51  .218  .309  .528  11   3   0   5  14   344   511  LF
1976 Reds          110   43   32  .707   7.19  298   59  .224  .347  .569   4   4   0   9  11   413   627  LF
1977 Reds          143   63   54  .738   8.64  388   85  .311  .420  .637  10   5   0   8  17   447   689  LF
1978 Reds          113   35   26  .656   6.60  330   73  .265  .387  .566  16   7   0   6  18   462   687  LF
1979 Reds           93   39   35  .728   7.77  247   51  .259  .393  .586   7   3   0   3  11   323   505  LF
1980 Reds           90   22   10  .621   6.04  250   51  .201  .345  .515  14   1   0   4  14   402   608  LF
1981 Reds           80   31   22  .703   7.01  215   47  .225  .357  .553   5   3   0   4  12   308   472  LF
1982 Mets           61  -10   -9  .428   3.79  202   38  .120  .213  .396   9   2   0   6  13   434   608  LF
     TOTALS        771  245  189  .663   6.64 2170  455  .229  .347  .545  76  28   0  45 110  3133  4707 
     LG AVERAGE    521    0    0  .500   4.49 1547  292  .123  .246  .434  51  20  33  35  88  3133  4466 
     POS AVERAGE   578   56    0  .541   4.98 1665  321  .139  .274  .463  45  22  22  37  87  3133  4528

HACK WILSON

1926-1933

YEAR TEAM         AGE G    AB    R    H    2B  3B  HR   HR%   RBI  BB   SO   SB   CS  AVG   SLG  OBA   OPS
1926 Cubs         26  142   529   97  170  36   8  21   3.97  109   69   61   10   0  .321  .539  .406  .944 
1927 Cubs         27  146   551  119  175  30  12  30   5.44  129   71   70   13   0  .318  .579  .401  .980 
1928 Cubs         28  145   520   89  163  32   9  31   5.96  120   77   94    4   0  .313  .588  .404  .992 
1929 Cubs         29  150   574  135  198  30   5  39   6.79  159   78   83    3   0  .345  .618  .425 1.044 
1930 Cubs         30  155   585  146  208  35   6  56   9.57  191  105   84    3   0  .356  .723  .454 1.177 
1931 Cubs         31  112   395   66  103  22   4  13   3.29   61   63   69    1   0  .261  .435  .362  .798 
1932 Dodgers      32  135   481   77  143  37   5  23   4.78  123   51   85    2   0  .297  .538  .366  .904 
1933 Dodgers      33  117   360   41   96  13   2   9   2.50   54   52   50    7   0  .267  .389  .359  .748 
     TOTALS          1102  3995  770 1256 235  51 222   5.56  946  566  596   43   0  .314  .565  .402  .967 
     LG AVERAGE            3850  553 1125 199  52  58   1.52  511  332  282   54   0  .292  .416  .351  .768 
     POS AVERAGE           3915  625 1171 199  52  72   1.85  496  325  297   65   0  .299  .432  .357  .789 

YEAR TEAM          RC   RCAA  RCAP OWP   RC/G   TB   EBH  ISO   SEC  BPA  IBB HBP SAC  SF GIDP OUTS  PA   POS
1926 Cubs          117   43   40  .700   8.27  285   65  .217  .367  .613   0   6   9   0   0   368   613  CF
1927 Cubs          128   53   49  .726   8.45  319   72  .261  .414  .651   0   6  18   0   0   394   646  CF
1928 Cubs          123   52   54  .734   8.39  306   72  .275  .431  .649   0   2  24   0   0   381   623  CF
1929 Cubs          151   62   54  .723  10.02  355   74  .274  .415  .670   0   2  16   0   0   392   670  CF
1930 Cubs          193   90   98  .758  12.70  423   97  .368  .552  .770   0   1  18   0   0   395   709  CF
1931 Cubs           64   10    7  .580   5.70  172   39  .175  .337  .515   0   0   0   0   0   292   458  CF
1932 Dodgers        94   30    7  .667   7.10  259   65  .241  .351  .587   0   1   6   0   0   344   539  RF
1933 Dodgers        53    8    5  .578   5.24  140   24  .122  .286  .464   0   0   1   0   8   273   413  LF
     TOTALS        923  348  314  .702   8.48 2259  508  .251  .404  .629   0  18  92   0   8  2839  4671 
     LG AVERAGE    580    0    0  .500   5.33 1602  309  .124  .224  .476   0  20 104   0   9  2839  4307 
     POS AVERAGE   617   37    0  .528   5.67 1692  324  .133  .233  .492   0  25  88   0   8  2839  4353

Vs the league

HACK WILSON

YEAR TEAM         AGE G    AB    R    H    2B  3B  HR   HR%   RBI  BB   SO   SB   CS  AVG   SLG  OBA   OPS
1923 Giants       23         -1   -2   -1   0   0   0  -1.33   -1   -1    0    0   0 -.093 -.208 -.152 -.360 
1924 Giants       24         12   11    5   2   6   5   1.38   11   15   20   -3   3  .005  .082  .024  .106 
1925 Giants       25        -14   -1  -15  -3   1   3   1.78    4    5   20    2   1 -.062 -.007 -.036 -.043 
1926 Cubs         26         37   29   29  12   1  16   2.85   47   26   27    2   0  .034  .141  .058  .199 
1927 Cubs         27         22   45   21   5   5  24   4.22   62   26   33    4   0  .028  .179  .053  .231 
1928 Cubs         28          8   16   14   6   2  23   4.42   53   28   58   -3   0  .023  .176  .049  .225 
1929 Cubs         29         34   49   34   0  -3  29   4.92   79   26   45   -6   0  .041  .175  .057  .232 
1930 Cubs         30         34   54   36   4  -2  44   7.41  105   56   41   -4   0  .044  .259  .084  .343 
1931 Cubs         31         -5   12  -11   1  -1   8   2.05   11   29   37   -4   0 -.024  .033  .018  .051 
1932 Dodgers      32         10   13    9  11  -1  15   3.18   64   16   48   -3   0  .013  .127  .029  .156 
1933 Dodgers      33          6   -2   -1  -3  -2   5   1.34   15   26   24    3   0 -.008  .014  .032  .046 
1934 Dodgers      34         -4    0   -6  -4  -2   3   1.87    4   26   18   -2   0 -.026 -.013  .059  .046 
     Phillies     34         -7   -4   -6  -1   0   0  -1.62    0    1    2    0   0 -.187 -.308 -.125 -.433 
     TOTALS                 -11   -4  -11  -5  -2   3   1.50    4   27   20   -2   0 -.042 -.044  .041 -.003 
     TOTALS                 130  222  109  29   4 175   3.63  453  279  374  -14   4  .015  .129  .044  .174 


YEAR TEAM          RC   RCAA  RCAP OWP   RC/G   TB   EBH  ISO   SEC  BPA  IBB HBP SAC  SF GIDP OUTS  PA   POS
     TOTALS          1                   0.10  -13   -5 -.001  .135  .009   0  -1  -3   0  -2     0    12 
1923 Giants         -2                  -5.17   -2   -1 -.115 -.220 -.261   0   0   0   0   0     0    -2  CF
1924 Giants         18                   1.64   36   14  .077  .104  .089   0  -1  -3   0   0     0    22  CF
1925 Giants         -5                  -0.89   -7    1  .055  .098  .021   0   0  -1   0   0     0   -10  LF
1926 Cubs           47                   3.32   89   29  .106  .153  .149   0   3  -8   0   0     0    58  CF
1927 Cubs           52                   3.44  107   34  .151  .202  .186   0   3   0   0   0     0    51  CF
1928 Cubs           45                   3.10   95   32  .152  .198  .170   0  -1   7   0   0     0    42  CF
1929 Cubs           60                   3.97  115   27  .134  .162  .159   0  -1   0   0   0     0    59  CF
1930 Cubs           96                   6.32  167   45  .216  .300  .250   0  -2   2   0   0     0    91  CF
1931 Cubs            7                   0.65   11    7  .057  .123  .053   0  -2  -6   0   0     0    16  CF
1932 Dodgers        27                   2.07   65   26  .114  .138  .122   0  -1  -1   0   0     0    24  RF
1933 Dodgers         8                   0.80    7    0  .021  .101  .057   0  -2  -6   0   1     0    24  LF
1934 Dodgers         4                   0.91   -4   -3  .013  .157  .044   0  -1  -2   0  -1     0    18  LF
     Phillies       -4                  -5.22   -9   -2 -.121 -.059 -.311   0   0   0   0  -1     0    -6  LF
     TOTALS          1                   0.10  -13   -5 -.001  .135  .009   0  -1  -3   0  -2     0    12 
     TOTALS        355                   2.78  670  208  .115  .168  .136   0  -4 -19   0  -1     0   387

GEORGE FOSTER

YEAR TEAM         AGE G    AB    R    H    2B  3B  HR   HR%   RBI  BB   SO   SB   CS  AVG   SLG  OBA   OPS
1969 Giants       20          1    1    1   0   0   0  -2.36    1    0    0    0   0  .141  .016  .070  .086 
1970 Giants       21          1    0    1   0   1   1   2.58    2    0    2    0   0  .049  .224  .041  .265 
1971 Giants       22          0   -2    1   1  -1   1   0.65   -4   -4   12   -2   0  .007  .020 -.022 -.003 
     Reds         22        -22   -8  -15   3   1   1   0.51    7  -14   37    1  -3 -.026  .006 -.037 -.031 
     TOTALS                 -22   -9  -15   3   0   2   0.54    3  -18   49    0  -3 -.019  .009 -.034 -.025 
1972 Reds         23        -12   -4  -11  -2   0  -2  -0.90   -5  -10   20   -1   1 -.057 -.096 -.095 -.191 
1973 Reds         24          1    1    1   1   0   3   7.77    5    0    1   -1  -1  .020  .276  .017  .294 
1974 Reds         25          1   -4    1   7  -2   1   0.48    9    1   14   -3   1  .002  .027  .009  .035 
1975 Reds         26         25   16   23   5   1  14   2.98   27   -6   14   -6   3  .035  .135  .020  .155 
1976 Reds         27         38   22   34  -1   5  20   3.36   62    0   19    5   3  .043  .156  .035  .190 
1977 Reds         28         42   48   43   4  -3  37   5.88   78    3   24   -8   4  .051  .220  .045  .265 
1978 Reds         29         19   25   17  -1   2  28   4.54   53   11   57  -11   3  .019  .161  .030  .191 
1979 Reds         30         27   15   22  -1   0  21   4.53   49   19   48  -10   3  .033  .162  .052  .214 
1980 Reds         31         16   16    7  -2   1  15   2.75   34   27   30  -14   7  .006  .086  .033  .119 
1981 Reds         32         25   18   20   6  -1  15   3.57   47   13   24   -7   5  .032  .143  .045  .188 
1982 Mets         33         -2   -5  -11  -1  -2   2   0.29    6   -2   45  -15   6 -.018 -.019 -.019 -.038 
1983 Mets         34         -7   -3  -15  -8  -3  14   2.41   18  -24   20  -17   8 -.022  .029 -.043 -.013 
1984 Mets         35         12    0    6  -2  -3  13   2.29   23  -23   40  -13   5  .006  .060 -.017  .043 
1985 Mets         36         14    2    5   4  -2  11   2.36   26    2   22  -12   4  .003  .073  .003  .076 
1986 Mets         37         -8   -3  -10  -5   0   7   3.14    9   -4   14   -6   2 -.034  .035 -.042 -.007 
     White Sox    37         -2   -5   -3  -2   2  -1  -1.00   -3   -2   -1   -1   1 -.046 -.055 -.070 -.125 
     TOTALS                 -10   -8  -13  -8   1   7   2.39    7   -6   13   -7   3 -.036  .019 -.047 -.028 
     TOTALS                 168  130  117   5  -5 201   2.81  444  -14  443 -118  51  .010  .093  .008  .101 


YEAR TEAM          RC   RCAA  RCAP OWP   RC/G   TB   EBH  ISO   SEC  BPA  IBB HBP SAC  SF GIDP OUTS  PA   POS
     TOTALS         -8                  -0.98    1    0  .055  .012 -.017  -2  -2  -2   0  -3     0   -21 
1969 Giants          1                   4.60    1    0 -.125 -.240 -.026   0   0   0   0   0     0     1  RF
1970 Giants          1                   2.82    5    2  .175  .155  .167   1   0   0   0  -1     0     1  LF
1971 Giants         -2                  -0.70    2    1  .013 -.040 -.035   0  -1  -1   0  -1     0    -6  LF
     Reds          -13                  -1.12   -6    5  .032  .003 -.027  -3   5  -3   0  -7     0   -35  CF
     TOTALS        -15                  -1.03   -4    6  .027 -.007 -.029  -3   4  -4   0  -8     0   -40 
1972 Reds          -12                  -2.50  -18   -4 -.040 -.107 -.144  -1   0  -1   0  -2     0   -24  RF
1973 Reds            3                   2.71   11    4  .257  .242  .220  -1   0   0   0   0     0     0  CF
1974 Reds            1                   0.17    8    6  .024  .017  .018   1   2  -1   0  -2     0     3  RF
1975 Reds           23                   1.83   72   20  .100  .066  .099   5   0  -4   1  -4     0    16  LF
1976 Reds           45                   2.91  102   23  .113  .115  .150  -2   1  -4   4   1     0    40  LF
1977 Reds           63                   3.80  153   38  .170  .152  .183   3   2  -4   3  -5     0    47  LF
1978 Reds           37                   2.17  104   30  .142  .138  .133   8   4  -5   1  -5     0    29  LF
1979 Reds           37                   3.12   82   20  .129  .141  .143   2   1  -4  -1  -2     0    43  LF
1980 Reds           24                   1.61   52   14  .080  .101  .082   7  -1  -4  -1  -3     0    37  LF
1981 Reds           31                   2.74   69   20  .111  .119  .131   0   1  -4   1  -3     0    36  LF
1982 Mets          -10                  -0.62  -11   -2  .000 -.030 -.036   2  -1  -5   1  -1     0    -8  LF
1983 Mets          -13                  -0.71   15    4  .051 -.015 -.014  -3   1  -4  -1  -6     0   -36  LF
1984 Mets            3                   0.17   38    8  .054 -.013  .019   3   4  -4   1  -2     0   -10  LF
1985 Mets           12                   0.91   38   13  .069  .044  .055  -1   0  -3   1   2     0    13  LF
1986 Mets           -5                  -0.69    5    1  .069  .030  .000  -2  -1  -2   0  -2     0   -15  LF
     White Sox      -3                  -2.06   -4   -1 -.009 -.068 -.097   0   0   0   0  -1     0    -6  LF
     TOTALS         -8                  -0.98    1    0  .055  .012 -.017  -2  -2  -2   0  -3     0   -21 
     TOTALS        224                   1.10  716  202  .082  .061  .068  20  18 -53   9 -43     0   129

Despite the run atmospheres being polar opposites Wilson still dominated his era more than Foster who did dominate his era. That said it's fun to note that the Giants dumped both players prior to their busting ou.

[Tony Cloninger]

Okay.....I was wrong. Hack Wilson is still not a HOF to me.

[westofyou]

Originally Posted by Tony Cloninger

Okay.....I was wrong. Hack Wilson is still not a HOF to me.

Oh you're probably right about that.

Lots of players can be placed in the HOF if we only use some of the men who we think (know) are borderline who are in there.

That's probably the weakest method and the easiest though.

[RedsBaron]

Originally Posted by westofyou

Oh you're probably right about that.

Lots of players can be placed in the HOF if we only use some of the men who we think (know) are borderline who are in there.

That's probably the weakest method and the easiest though.

Very true. I particularly am not impressed when someone who advocates the induction of a relatively "modern" player uses as the HOF players for comparsion people who played decades ago (no offense intended Tony Cloninger), because the old veterans committee made so many mistakes in inducting players from the 1920s and 1930s.
However, a comparsion between contemporaries, some of whom are in the HOF and some of whom are not, does seem to me to be a bit better argument. For example, Luis Tiant clearly is more deserving of the HOF than is Pop Haines, but Haines played back in the 1920s-30s and is just another of Frankie Frisch's cronies to be a mistake made by the veterans committee. A much better argument for Tiant IMO is that two of his contemporaries, Catfish Hunter and Jim Bunning, are in the HOF, and Tiant is as deserving of the HOF as Hunter and Bunning.

[George Anderson]

Originally Posted by RedsBaron

and is just another of Frankie Frisch's cronies to be a mistake made by the veterans committee.

What was Frisch's connection to the Veterans Committee? I have often seen his named ranked with the many who do not deserve induction to the HOF but was he also on the Veterans Committee and partially responsible for so many bad inductions to the HOF?

[westofyou]

Originally Posted by George Anderson

What was Frisch's connection to the Veterans Committee? I have often seen his named ranked with the many who do not deserve induction to the HOF but was he also on the Veterans Committee and partially responsible for so many bad inductions to the HOF?

He headed the Vets committee, applied pressure and introduced many vets from his era, that said he deserved to be in there himself for sure.

[Cooper]

Bill James book "Whatever Happened to the Hall of Fame"...is the best breakdown/analysis for what they usually look for in a player. He also does a great job in detailing the voting and the back channel stuff that occurred.

I really had no desire to read the book when i started. The HOF is not something I'm really interested in, but James is such a good writer that he overcomes reader apathy.