Baker: Phillips will hit clean up

[Always Red]

Originally Posted by fearofpopvol1

Awesome!! This upcoming season is getting better and more exciting by the day. I can't wait!!

Quick, I need to see more pictures of spring training to get me re-excited after reading Dusty's comments!!

Phillips would make a fine #5 (or 6, in a better lineup) hitter based upon last year. If he shows he can get on base more, then move him up in the order.

CTrent made a very good point about BP. We are rightly concerned about Willie T's OBP; his career OBP is .331. Yet, BP's career high OBP is .331, and his career OBP is .308. I don't want BP hitting 2nd or 4th with those numbers. I think that's where the comparison falls apart between those two, though. BP can OPS, and Willie cannot.

[BRM]

Originally Posted by membengal

Perhaps Gomes gets that start over Hairston?

He certainly could. If he did, I would expect Gonzalez to hit 2nd and Gomes 7th.

[Stormy]

Originally Posted by Spring~Fields

Brandon Phillips VS Right Handed Pitching
2008 - AVG OBP SLG OPS - .247 .293 .383 .676 AB - 397
2007 - AVG OBP SLG OPS - .262 .310 .428 .738 AB - 442
2006 - AVG OBP SLG OPS - .268 .315 .429 .744 AB - 399

Brandon Phillips VS Left Handed Pitching
2008 - AVG OBP SLG OPS - .296 .358 .586 .944 AB - 162
2007 - AVG OBP SLG OPS - .341 .378 .606 .984 AB - 208
2006 - AVG OBP SLG OPS - .299 .351 .423 .774 AB - 137

It's comical, isn't it? Phillips is going to get @2.5 times as many ABs against RHP, as LHP, at a fraction of the production, but let's indiscriminately pencil him in at cleanup against both. It takes a few moments of statistical consideration to craft an optimal lineup, yet apparently a man who gets paid 7 figures to finish in the cellar doesn't have that kind of time to spare. If ever there was a human embodiment of the phrase, "rather curse the darkness than have someone light a candle" it's Dusty Baker. I'm amazed that this man is allowed to manage at the MLB level.

"You struggle sometimes a little bit in your 3rd or 4th year." Did I just read that? What an exacting insight, he's really analyzed this situation! "Hey Skipper, Brandon's struggling against RHP, and is having a tough time with his pitch selectivity!" "Don't worry about it, bra' it's probably just a case of the third or fourth year slump, he'll come out of it."

[westofyou]

In a perfect world he bats 6th and gets 90 RBI and steals 25 bags in front of guys who hit the ball more than they watch it.

[remdog]

Wow! Where have you been? Good to see you.

This whole idea of hitting BP 4th is depressing. The more I read this thread the more depressed I get.

I decided to give Dusty a chance last year and see how he did. Dusty and disaster both start with 'D'. I shake my head every time I think of this guy as the Reds' manager.

Either stats or observation will prove the points posted above. Does someone like Dusty have neither?

Rem

[Spring~Fields]

Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine

This ticks me off. Phillips hitting cleanup vs LHP? Fine. Against RHP? Absolutely not. This offense is already going to have some problems scoring runs and it doesn't help matters that our manager can't fill out a decent lineup. Phillips need to either hit second where he'll maybe stop swinging for the fences, or sixth. Brandon Phillips is not a cleanup hitter and it's a shame Dusty Baker doesn't realize this.

I am trying to reconcile this whole thing.

I think that I am only going to watch when the Reds play against left handed pitching, I am not sure how I am going to work it out with releif pitchers coming in that might be left handed following right handed pitching.

Lineup Vs. Right Handed Pitching

Willy Taveras CF VS Right Handed Pitching
2008 - AVG OBP SLG OPS - .245 .303 .291 .594 AB - 351
2007 - AVG OBP SLG OPS - .304 .351 .357 .708 AB - 283
2006 - AVG OBP SLG OPS - .285 .338 .345 .683 AB - 411

Alex Gonzalez SS VS Right Handed Pitching
2007 - AVG OBP SLG OPS - .287 .329 .511 .840 AB - 282
2006 - AVG OBP SLG OPS - .244 .282 .389 .671 AB - 262
2005 - AVG OBP SLG OPS - .277 .329 .383 .712 AB - 347

Joey Votto 1B VS Right Handed Pitching
2008 - AVG OBP SLG OPS - .299 .370 .510 .880 AB - 355
2007 - AVG OBP SLG OPS - .345 .387 .638 1.025 AB - 58

Brandon Phillips 2B VS Right Handed Pitching
2008 - AVG OBP SLG OPS - .247 .293 .383 .676 AB - 397
2007 - AVG OBP SLG OPS - .262 .310 .428 .738 AB - 442
2006 - AVG OBP SLG OPS - .268 .315 .429 .744 AB - 399

Edwin Encarnacion 3B VS Right Handed Pitching
2008 - AVG OBP SLG OPS - .235 .315 .450 .765 AB - 362
2007 - AVG OBP SLG OPS - .291 .346 .444 .790 AB - 347
2006 - AVG OBP SLG OPS - .287 .355 .478 .833 AB - 293

Jay Bruce RF VS Right Handed Pitching
2008 - AVG OBP SLG OPS - .286 .340 .529 .869 AB - 276

Left Field - Ward, Jones, Hairston, Dickerson, Gomes, ????????????

Ramon Hernandez C Vs. Right Handed Pitching
2008 - AVG OBP SLG OPS - .245 .305 .421 .726 AB - 318
2007 - AVG OBP SLG OPS - .261 .334 .366 .700 AB - 268
2006 - AVG OBP SLG OPS - .270 .324 .444 .768 AB - 374


Lineup Vs. Left Handed Pitching

Willy Taveras CF VS Left Handed Pitching
2008 - AVG OBP SLG OPS - .266 .321 .313 .634 AB - 128
2007 - AVG OBP SLG OPS - .371 .417 .461 .878 AB - 89
2006 - AVG OBP SLG OPS - .254 .318 .314 .632 AB - 118

Alex Gonzalez SS VS Left Handed Pitching
2007 - AVG OBP SLG OPS - .234 .315 .360 .675 AB - 111
2006 - AVG OBP SLG OPS - .278 .333 .413 .746 AB - 126
2005 - AVG OBP SLG OPS - .216 .278 .307 .585 AB - 88

Joey Votto 1B VS Left Handed Pitching
2008 - AVG OBP SLG OPS - .292 .365 .497 .862 AB - 171
2007 - AVG OBP SLG OPS - .304 .351 .357 .708 AB - 26

Brandon Phillips 2B VS Left Handed Pitching
2008 - AVG OBP SLG OPS - .296 .358 .586 .944 AB - 162
2007 - AVG OBP SLG OPS - .341 .378 .606 .984 AB - 208
2006 - AVG OBP SLG OPS - .299 .351 .423 .774 AB - 137

Edwin Encarnacion 3B VS Left Handed Pitching
2008 - AVG OBP SLG OPS - .292 .401 .507 .908 AB - 144
2007 - AVG OBP SLG OPS - .284 .378 .426 .804 AB - 155
2006 - AVG OBP SLG OPS - .248 .368 .460 .828 AB - 113

Jay Bruce RF VS Left Handed Pitching
2008 - AVG OBP SLG OPS - .190 .263 .299 .562 AB - 137

Left Field - Ward, Jones, Hairston, Dickerson, Gomes, ????????????

Ramon Hernandez C Vs. Left Handed Pitching
2008 - AVG OBP SLG OPS - .283 .316 .372 .688 AB - 145
2007 - AVG OBP SLG OPS - .250 .327 .427 .754 AB - 96
2006 - AVG OBP SLG OPS - .291 .393 .583 .976 AB - 127

[REDREAD]

Originally Posted by westofyou

In a perfect world he bats 6th and gets 90 RBI and steals 25 bags in front of guys who hit the ball more than they watch it.

Yep. And in a perfect world, we have better options for cleanup than Bruce, EdE, and Phillips (Assuming Votto bats 3rd). None of those 3 guys gets me excited as a cleanup hitter.

[Spring~Fields]

Originally Posted by Stormy

It's comical, isn't it? Phillips is going to get @2.5 times as many ABs against RHP, as LHP, at a fraction of the production, but let's indiscriminately pencil him in at cleanup against both.

I was thinking that it was more painful than "comical".

[Spring~Fields]

Originally Posted by REDREAD

Yep. And in a perfect world, we have better options for cleanup than Bruce, EdE, and Phillips (Assuming Votto bats 3rd). None of those 3 guys gets me excited as a cleanup hitter.

I would settle just to have the four batters with the highest On Base Percentage that the team has batting one through four. That would be a step in the right direction, especially if it were to occur according to their splits vs left and vs right handed pitching.

I think that we already have indications that, that won't be occuring.

[TRF]

Originally Posted by REDREAD

Yep. And in a perfect world, we have better options for cleanup than Bruce, EdE, and Phillips (Assuming Votto bats 3rd). None of those 3 guys gets me excited as a cleanup hitter.

I think EE is a perfect choice for cleanup. good mix of contact, OBP and power. In 2008, when he was on, (looking at monthly splits), he was remarkably consistent. He just needs that consistency over the course of the entire season.

[Chip R]

Originally Posted by TRF

I think EE is a perfect choice for cleanup. good mix of contact, OBP and power. In 2008, when he was on, (looking at monthly splits), he was remarkably consistent. He just needs that consistency over the course of the entire season.

I think it's possible that Dusty doesn't want to put any more pressure than is necessary on EE and batting cleanup is a pressure situation. I think he did bat cleanup for a stretch last year but I'm not too sure how he did in that spot.

From what I've heard, no one wants Brandon to hit cleanup. Dusty may be putting the best face on it which he's good at. But if they are going to hit Votto 3rd and Bruce 5th to break up the lefties, they have to put a right handed hitter in there. If it isn't going to be EE, there really aren't any other options besides Brandon. Sure, they don't have to break up the lefties but, again, cleanup is a pressure position and that may be too much pressure for a guy who hasn't played a full season yet.

[WMR]

Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine

Baker: Phillips will hit clean up
Posted by JohnFay at 2/19/2009 10:19 AM EST on Cincinnati.com

Dusty Baker said that Brandon Phillips will hit fourth -- at least at the start of the year.

“The way the lineup is right now, yeah,” Baker said.

Phillips' numbers were down last year from 2007. He hit .288 with 30 home runs and 94 RBI in '07. Last year, he hit .261 with 21 homers and 78.

“Brandon will have a good year," Baker said. "You struggle sometimes a little bit in third or fourth year. Brandon will readjust. Sometimes they wouldn’t throw Brandon a lot of strikes. Sometimes when you’re in the middle of it, you can’t see it. When you’re smart like Brandon, you take some time away and you step back and see things.”

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs...cincinnati.com

Awesome idea, Dusty!

Can't wait till this clown is fired. Of course, I'm sure Castellini will hire someone just as backwards.

[Spring~Fields]

Originally Posted by Chip R

I think it's possible that Dusty doesn't want to put any more pressure than is necessary on EE and batting cleanup is a pressure situation. I think he did bat cleanup for a stretch last year but I'm not too sure how he did in that spot.

From what I've heard, no one wants Brandon to hit cleanup. Dusty may be putting the best face on it which he's good at. But if they are going to hit Votto 3rd and Bruce 5th to break up the lefties, they have to put a right handed hitter in there. If it isn't going to be EE, there really aren't any other options besides Brandon. Sure, they don't have to break up the lefties but, again, cleanup is a pressure position and that may be too much pressure for a guy who hasn't played a full season yet.

He does have some other options against right handed pitching to bat 3, 4, 5. He does have some auditioning that can hit those right handed pitchers and be a better option than Phillips. I am not sure that he knows that though, and if he does know that and Phillips still bats fourth against right handed pitching, well, then either way, Hm.

[WMR]

I wonder if Dusty's head would explode if someone asked him if he'd ever looked at a batter's splits.

[Spring~Fields]

Originally Posted by WilyMoROCKS

Awesome idea, Dusty!

Can't wait till this clown is fired. Of course, I'm sure Castellini will hire someone just as backwards.

It's the Economy!!