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#1 | |
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Stat Wanker Hodiernus
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 14,988
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The Color of Clutch
Tom Tango (aka TangoTiger) shares the results of his study on clutch. I think Tom says it much better than could I, so I'll let you read the article.
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/ar...lor-of-clutch/ Quote:
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Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance. |
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#2 |
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Vampire Weekend @Bernie's
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 11,311
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Re: The Color of Clutch
Great article--thank you for posting it. The last section is almost exactly what I've been trying to articulate in tORG for the past couple months.
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#3 |
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Five Tool Fool
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 16,695
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Re: The Color of Clutch
Take home: Clutch likely exists but it's such a small effect that randomness gobbles it up and using clutch to inform decisions is inferior to using career numbers/projections.
It's a novel confirmation of what we already knew.
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"This isn’t stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner |
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#4 |
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Vampire Weekend @Bernie's
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 11,311
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Re: The Color of Clutch
I think part of the problem is that people are calling it 'clutch'. I prefer to simply call it situational hitting. If a runner is on 2nd with no outs, the hitter's going to get different pitches to hit than if there were a runner on 1st with one out. Some players hit certain pitches better than others, and I think that has more of an effect.
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#5 | |
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Stat Wanker Hodiernus
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 14,988
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Re: The Color of Clutch
Quote:
For example, there are a large contingent of fans who, with a man on 3B and one out would prefer the bat fly out to deep CF than take a walk. That's the issue. People don't see clutch as producing positive outcomes -- they see it as producing a very specific outcome, one which leans very heavily to putting the ball in play on command. As Tango points out, this bias is clearly evident in his study. And given basic psychology it's pretty easy to understand why it exists.
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Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance. Last edited by RedsManRick; 02-20-2009 at 09:16 PM. |
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#6 | |
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Vavasor
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Amarillo, TX
Posts: 12,730
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Re: The Color of Clutch
Quote:
A bigger problem is clutch has been defined as only a hitting attribute. It never seems to be mentioned about pitchers.
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"don't end up with a grandson with a dog collar." |
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#7 | |
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Passion for the game
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 8,081
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Re: The Color of Clutch
I always liked the GWRBI stat on the back of some Topps Baseball cards. Keith Hernandez seemed to have a lot of those.
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Quote:
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#8 |
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Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Southern KY
Posts: 6,967
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Re: The Color of Clutch
Clutch is someone who doesn't strikeout with a guy on 2nd or 3rd. That's what the average fan calls it. It's silly.
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"My mission is to be the ray of hope, the guy who stands out there on that beautiful field and owns up to his mistakes and lets people know it's never completely hopeless, no matter how bad it seems at the time. I have a platform and a message, and now I go to bed at night, sober and happy, praying I can be a good messenger." -Josh Hamilton |
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#9 |
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Member
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 5,815
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Re: The Color of Clutch
The Color of Clutch.
Grey?
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#10 |
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Hey Cubs Fans
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: New York
Posts: 16,572
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Re: The Color of Clutch
BCubb said it best, IMO, in several of our past discussions on this topic.
"Clutch is the absence of choke" I'd think that the guys who had the least drop in leveraged situations would be "clutch" from a players point of view. Players understand that the mental side of the game is what really changes in those highly charged situations. The guy who can maintain his calm and focus is "clutch". The guy who can't is choking. How much that mental difference shows up in performance is relative to the player. They're all different. And the players know who is affected by nerves or pressure. I think that perception by the players among themselves is a big part of any team's makeup. Great article.
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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." ~ Mark Twain |
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#11 |
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2009: Fail
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Cincinnati
Posts: 7,441
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Re: The Color of Clutch
Oddly, the color of clutch is roughly similar to the color of money.
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a super volcano of ridonkulous suckitude. I simply don't have access to a "cares about RBI" place in my psyche. There is a "mildly curious about OBI%" alcove just before the acid filled lake guarded by robot snipers with lasers which leads to the "cares about RBI" antechamber though. - Nate |
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#12 |
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Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Lake Orion, MI
Posts: 454
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Re: The Color of Clutch
I find clutch to be kind of a stupid idea because the majority of clutch is based on the situation a player finds himself in. I mean, if there are no runners to drive in how can you be clutch? Everyone talks about the game winning hit, but what about the plays prior to that that make the game winning hit possible.
Consider this, two outs, no one on base, down 1 run in the bottom of the ninth. The next player up hits a double. The following player gets beaned on an 0-2 pitch and then there is a double steal and now there are guys on second and third. The fifth batter in the inning singles and both runners score. Who is the most clutch in this situation? Conventional wisdom tells us that the last player is the most clutch, but he would not have been clutch without the two runners on base. And the last player had a less impressive hit as the first player to get a hit smoked a double. So is the last player really the most clutch?
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Baseball is not necessarily an obsessive-compulsive disorder, like washing your hands 100 times a day, but it's beginning to seem that way. We're reaching the point where you can be a truly dedicated, state-of-the-art fan or you can have a life. Take your pick. ~Thomas Boswell Having a life is overrated. |
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#13 | |
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Member
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
Posts: 15,281
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Re: The Color of Clutch
Quote:
This is a frustrating reality for some folks intent on proving everything with numbers. Not everything can be reduced to stats and this is one of them. Further complicating this is that there are clutch batters and clutch pitchers. In fact you'll find fierce competitors at the top of every sport. |
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#14 |
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Haunted by walks
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Syracuse
Posts: 6,360
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Re: The Color of Clutch
If clutch is the absence of choke, then the hard part is looking for a lack of change in performance. The player who performs the same in tense situations is clutch.
Of course, you have to define clutch situations. Maybe you can start with players whose performance drops in certain situations, and figure out if there's a pattern. Do they drop when it's close? Late? Close and late? Runners in scoring position? Two outs? Behind in the count? It's probably a sliding scale of sorts. |
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#15 | |
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Five Tool Fool
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 16,695
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Re: The Color of Clutch
Quote:
Again that's not frustrating-that's a definitive, informative declaration of meh.
__________________
"This isn’t stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner |
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