The Color of Clutch

[jojo]

I think it's very unclutch to dismiss any opponent in a clutch situation.

[RedsBaron]

Originally Posted by TRF

A bigger problem is clutch has been defined as only a hitting attribute. It never seems to be mentioned about pitchers.

I have an easier time identifying pitchers whom I believe to be "clutch" pitchers than I do clutch hitters. Guys such as Sandy Koufax, Bob Gibson, John Smoltz and Curt Schilling consistently seemd to "come through" in big games, post-season contests.

[Ron Madden]

If someone like Tony Perez or Big Poppi drives in the winning run late in a close game some will surely label them "Clutch Hitters" because those situations are easy to remember, it's very easy to forget the times so called " Clutch Hitters" fail to deliver the big hit during an entire career, weather they happen in the third, sixth or last inning of a ballgame.

Most Reds Fans believe that Big Poppi has more walk off homers than Adam Dunn. It aint so.

Most baseball fans relate driving in the winning run as clutch. It aint necessarily so.

Gimme the guy that avoids making outs and keeps hope alive by keeping the inning going.

[blumj]

Originally Posted by Ron Madden

Most Reds Fans believe that Big Poppi has more walk off homers than Adam Dunn. It aint so.

http://sonsofsamhorn.net/wiki/index.php/Ortiz_Walk_Offs

For real?

[Redhook]

Originally Posted by SMcGavin

FWIW, I don't buy the assertion that someone can magically raise their level of play during crunch time. It just doesn't make much sense.

Tiger Woods and Michael Jordan say hi.

I believe athletes can raise their levels of play during crunch time. Adrenaline and other factors can heighten the senses to perform at higher levels. It's similar to how the human body can perform more than normal in times of stress....ex: a person being able to lift more than normal because a life is on the line.

That being said, I do think it's more difficult to quantify clutch in baseball compared to most other sports. But, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

[RFS62]

Originally Posted by Redhook

Tiger Woods and Michael Jordan say hi.

I believe athletes can raise their levels of play during crunch time. Adrenaline and other factors can heighten the senses to perform at higher levels. It's similar to how the human body can perform more than normal in times of stress....ex: a person being able to lift more than normal because a life is on the line.

That being said, I do think it's more difficult to quantify clutch in baseball compared to most other sports. But, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Exactly. Well said.

[RANDY IN INDY]

I'll second that. Athletes like Woods and Jordan have that single minded drive that allows them to concentrate even more in critical situations. I don't know that the "little extra" that some athletes have is something that can be measured. I have played with, coached, and been around a lot of very talented athletes. Some athletes have that "something" that allows them to
perform at their best in tough situations. I've seen guys that could sink 50 free throws in a row consistently in practice, but put them in a real game situation where there is pressure and they couldn't sink two in a row. Be up by 15 and there was no problem. Same with hitters and fielders in baseball. There is "that something" that some athletes have. Maybe it isn't called "clutch" but it is something. I think a lot of it is having a strong mind that does not allow or accept failure on any kind of a regular basis.

[jojo]

Has there ever been a study that showed Jordan has a higher shooting percentage in a clutch situation than he did overall. Likewise does Tiger put better on hole 18 during Sunday afternoons than other times?

I honestly don't know the answer. But in baseball the clutch narrative has been challenged a myriad of ways by stats and we're still looking for validation of it's "intuitive" existence.

[redsbuckeye]

Originally Posted by jojo

Has there ever been a study that showed Jordan has a higher shooting percentage in a clutch situation than he did overall. Likewise does Tiger put better on hole 18 during Sunday afternoons than other times?

I honestly don't know the answer. But in baseball the clutch narrative has been challenged a myriad of ways by stats and we're still looking for validation of it's "intuitive" existence.

Confirmation bias has got to be a huge determinant in any non-scientific discussion of clutch.

Going along the lines of the pitcher - batter relationship in clutch situations, shouldn't it be considered that situations defined as clutch affect both batter and pitcher equally? Given this assumption, wouldn't it also mean that a clutch outcome for a batter could be an equally choke outcome for the pitcher or vice-versa? Seems to me you've got X amount of clutch on one side and X amount of choke on the other, or they cancel each other out (assuming clutch and choke are opposite sides of the same scale). So who's in control of the situation? I don't know if there's a conclusion to be drawn in this rambling, so I'll just take a slight bow.

[BCubb2003]

Originally Posted by redsbuckeye

Confirmation bias has got to be a huge determinant in any non-scientific discussion of clutch.

Going along the lines of the pitcher - batter relationship in clutch situations, shouldn't it be considered that situations defined as clutch affect both batter and pitcher equally? Given this assumption, wouldn't it also mean that a clutch outcome for a batter could be an equally choke outcome for the pitcher or vice-versa? Seems to me you've got X amount of clutch on one side and X amount of choke on the other, or they cancel each other out (assuming clutch and choke are opposite sides of the same scale). So who's in control of the situation? I don't know if there's a conclusion to be drawn in this rambling, so I'll just take a slight bow.

It's possible that the presence of certain players changes the clutch quotient of a situation. Coming up with the winning run on base and facing Billy Wagner is different from the same situation against Majewski.

[redsbuckeye]

Originally Posted by BCubb2003

It's possible that the presence of certain players changes the clutch quotient of a situation. Coming up with the winning run on base and facing Billy Wagner is different from the same situation against Majewski.

Well doesn't Billy Wagner affect his own clutch situation? I mean, the entirety of the situation, batter and pitcher, must be taken in to account. Billy Wagner giving up the winning run over Majewski would signifiy an increase in choke, even more so given a poor batter like Corey Patterson. I don't think you can look at a batter's situation in a vaccuum from the pitchers situation, they're the same situation!

[Chip R]

Originally Posted by Redhook

Tiger Woods and Michael Jordan say hi.

I believe athletes can raise their levels of play during crunch time. Adrenaline and other factors can heighten the senses to perform at higher levels. It's similar to how the human body can perform more than normal in times of stress....ex: a person being able to lift more than normal because a life is on the line.

That being said, I do think it's more difficult to quantify clutch in baseball compared to most other sports. But, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Those two are and were the best players in their respective sports. Could it be that they are/were just playing up to their own (high) level?

[BCubb2003]

Billy Wagner vs. Juan Castro is not as clutch for Billy Wagner as it is for Juan Castro.

[redsbuckeye]

Originally Posted by BCubb2003

Billy Wagner vs. Juan Castro is not as clutch for Billy Wagner as it is for Juan Castro.

Exactly! So if Billy Wanger succeeds, it's a small amount of clutch for Billy and a small amount of choke for Juan. But if Juan succeeds, it's a HUGE amount of clutch for Juan and a HUGE amount of choke for Billy. The clutch/choke on either side scales at the same rate.

[*BaseClogger*]

Originally Posted by Chip R

Those two are and were the best players in their respective sports. Could it be that they are/were just playing up to their own (high) level?

Or that it is the other competitors who are choking and Tiger and Jordan are merely maintaining their level of play? These are very difficult questions to answer...