Todd Frazier struggling?

[kpresidente]

If it were up to me, he'd be playing SS until the numbers say he can't.

[tripleaaaron]

Originally Posted by kpresidente

If it were up to me, he'd be playing SS until the numbers say he can't.

Same here, then a switch to 3b ala Cal Ripken. (Not saying he is him) It is very important to the success of 2010-2012 that Frazier plays in the infield. With Votto destined for Left when Alonso takes over first, Stubbs/Heisey to man Center/4th Of spot, Bruce in Right and Phillips at 2B, that leaves two open slots. EE may be destined for the Outfield as well as a change of scenery and while Rosales adds fire, he is destined for a utility role.

This would mean that we need Frazier to man either 3B or SS, while looking for options at the other position. With Francisco currently at the same level as Frazier, and EE already signed for 2010 and no above average option ready for short (Cozart, mid 2011?), it would make the most sense for Frazier to man short for 2010 up til Cozart is ready.

[Degenerate39]

Originally Posted by tripleaaaron

Same here, then a switch to 3b ala Cal Ripken. (Not saying he is him) It is very important to the success of 2010-2012 that Frazier plays in the infield. With Votto destined for Left when Alonso takes over first, Stubbs/Heisey to man Center/4th Of spot, Bruce in Right and Phillips at 2B, that leaves two open slots. EE may be destined for the Outfield as well as a change of scenery and while Rosales adds fire, he is destined for a utility role.

This would mean that we need Frazier to man either 3B or SS, while looking for options at the other position. With Francisco currently at the same level as Frazier, and EE already signed for 2010 and no above average option ready for short (Cozart, mid 2011?), it would make the most sense for Frazier to man short for 2010 up til Cozart is ready.

Catcher- Hanigan
First- Alonso
Second- Phillips
Third- Fransisco
Short- Frazier
Left- Votto
Center- Stubbs
Right- Bruce

That's pretty studly at least on paper.

[crazyredfan40]

Originally Posted by Degenerate39

Catcher- Hanigan
First- Alonso
Second- Phillips
Third- Fransisco
Short- Frazier
Left- Heisey
Center- Stubbs
Right- Bruce

That's pretty studly at least on paper.

Votto?

[Degenerate39]

Originally Posted by crazyredfan40

Votto?

Oh yea I meant to put him in Left

[Mario-Rijo]

Originally Posted by Degenerate39

Oh yea I meant to put him in Left

I could see that, but I'd put Frazier at 3rd and deal Francsico plus for a SS.

[Degenerate39]

Originally Posted by Mario-Rijo

I could see that, but I'd put Frazier at 3rd and deal Francsico plus for a SS.

Which would also work. I think Frazier will be a strong presence at the plate so he has to be in the line up. (Assuming he continues to do well)

[tripleaaaron]

Originally Posted by Degenerate39

Catcher- Hanigan
First- Alonso
Second- Phillips
Third- Fransisco
Short- Frazier
Left- Votto
Center- Stubbs
Right- Bruce

That's pretty studly at least on paper.

I agree, somewhere between studly and VERY STUDLY, depending on development. This lineup COULD be Big Red Machine like.

Originally Posted by Mario-Rijo

I could see that, but I'd put Frazier at 3rd and deal Francsico plus for a SS.

I won't argue with the penchant for trading Francisco but I really think that Cozart will be an above average major league shortstop thus I would trade Francisco (or EE) plus for a young arm and keep the other until Cozart pushes Frazier to third. At this point in time I just don't see a top notch young shortstop coming to us in a trade for merely Francisco+, teams don't just give those away. I wouldn't be opposed to trying to obtain a "sure thing" shortstop, but I think the more important thing is young starters.

[Mario-Rijo]

Originally Posted by tripleaaaron

I won't argue with the penchant for trading Francisco but I really think that Cozart will be an above average major league shortstop thus I would trade Francisco (or EE) plus for a young arm and keep the other until Cozart pushes Frazier to third. At this point in time I just don't see a top notch young shortstop coming to us in a trade for merely Francisco+, teams don't just give those away. I wouldn't be opposed to trying to obtain a "sure thing" shortstop, but I think the more important thing is young starters.

I don't think we can assume Cozart will make it, if he does great but we should look to fortify the position regardless. Also I'd still like to get a good look at Valaika before I completely write him off, although I tend to lean away from him being enough defensively. By that I mean enough for my taste, enough that he won't cost these pitchers too many extra pitches. That said a combination of Valaika and Janish next season could possibly get us through, especially if these offensive youngsters can come thru for us. As far as dealing Francisco (and/or EE also for that matter) I wouldn't presume to think we could get an upgrade at SS for a package headed by Francisco, I guess I should have said something + Francisco for a SS. It's unfortunate that 2 pivotal guys EE & Valaika are hurt we really need to get a firm grasp on both of them before the end of the year.

[tripleaaaron]

Originally Posted by Mario-Rijo

I don't think we can assume Cozart will make it, if he does great but we should look to fortify the position regardless. Also I'd still like to get a good look at Valaika before I completely write him off, although I tend to lean away from him being enough defensively. By that I mean enough for my taste, enough that he won't cost these pitchers too many extra pitches. That said a combination of Valaika and Janish next season could possibly get us through, especially if these offensive youngsters can come thru for us. As far as dealing Francisco (and/or EE also for that matter) I wouldn't presume to think we could get an upgrade at SS for a package headed by Francisco, I guess I should have said something + Francisco for a SS. It's unfortunate that 2 pivotal guys EE & Valaika are hurt we really need to get a firm grasp on both of them before the end of the year.

I completely agree with shoring up the position, but I think we should try to do that with the draft or by trading a vet like Harang or Arroyo. You hit it on the head when you said we can't assume that Cozart makes it, same as anyone we acquire, same as Francisco and Frazier. My contention is that the return for Francisco (unless + Francisco includes Harang, EE, or Arroyo) would not merit us trading him, I would rather see how he turns out. I don't think that we could manage a trade that would net an elite young shortstop without hindering our chances for future success. I would not be at all against making a minor move for a high risk/ high reward type shortstop however such as we did with Brandon Phillips, but I wouldn't trade anything substantial unless they aren't in the future plans.

[Mario-Rijo]

Originally Posted by tripleaaaron

I completely agree with shoring up the position, but I think we should try to do that with the draft or by trading a vet like Harang or Arroyo. You hit it on the head when you said we can't assume that Cozart makes it, same as anyone we acquire, same as Francisco and Frazier. My contention is that the return for Francisco (unless + Francisco includes Harang, EE, or Arroyo) would not merit us trading him, I would rather see how he turns out. I don't think that we could manage a trade that would net an elite young shortstop without hindering our chances for future success. I would not be at all against making a minor move for a high risk/ high reward type shortstop however such as we did with Brandon Phillips, but I wouldn't trade anything substantial unless they aren't in the future plans.

Well I just don't believe in dealing Harang and/or Arroyo until we have a proven commodity to replace or at least one who projects too at minimum give us close to what we are losing with them. I like what I saw with Maloney but I don't think he's the answer to losing either of them nor is Bailey IMO. I just fail to see the next 200 innning guy in our system right now, although I like Stewarts chances someday. And Harang and Arroyo will be worth more production for dollar than anyone we can sign as a FA. So unless we do trade for that arm (less likely than a good SS) we cannot afford to lose those guys while we can afford them.

I disagree with the thoughts on Francisco I believe the writing has been on the wall for quite some time and the odds of him ever playing a meaningful game in the bigs is extremely unlikely. The guy simply has too far to go to get there IMO. The time to deal him would have been in the past offseason. But we might still be able to convince a team to take him off our hands before his value plummets thru the floor. That time is the soonest we can get it done. A Francisco, Maloney and Watson deal for example could probably net us Garrett Atkins, maybe. Then you can deal him or Edwin off for a SS now and deal the other once you feel Frazier is ready.

[fearofpopvol1]

Small sample size in Louisville...but Frazier has looked quite solid thus far.

[Kc61]

Originally Posted by Mario-Rijo

I disagree with the thoughts on Francisco I believe the writing has been on the wall for quite some time and the odds of him ever playing a meaningful game in the bigs is extremely unlikely. The guy simply has too far to go to get there IMO. The time to deal him would have been in the past offseason. But we might still be able to convince a team to take him off our hands before his value plummets thru the floor. That time is the soonest we can get it done. .

The Francisco wall currently has the following writing on it--

.359 BA/.384 OBP/.598 SLG/.982 OPS in 92 AAA at bats at the end of Francisco's age 21-22 regular season.

Overall for the regular season, 529 official at bats, at two new levels, .295/.329/.518/.847 with 27 homers, 93 RBIs, and 61 extra base hits.

Francisco's homer, RBI, runs scored, base hit, and extra base hit totals are each higher for 2009 than any member of the Reds.

I wouldn't dump him quite yet. Looking good that he will play at least one meaningful game in the bigs at some point.

And Frazier ain't too bad himself.

[Brutus]

Originally Posted by Kc61

The Francisco wall currently has the following writing on it--

.359 BA/.384 OBP/.598 SLG/.982 OPS in 92 AAA at bats at the end of Francisco's age 21-22 regular season.

Overall for the regular season, 529 official at bats, at two new levels, .295/.329/.518/.847 with 27 homers, 93 RBIs, and 61 extra base hits.

Francisco's homer, RBI, runs scored, base hit, and extra base hit totals are each higher for 2009 than any member of the Reds.

I wouldn't dump him quite yet. Looking good that he will play at least one meaningful game in the bigs at some point.

And Frazier ain't too bad himself.

Those are definitely impressive numbers, so don't take this the wrong way... but that's some very low Isolated Discipline right there. Less than 30 points in OBP from walks - that has to improve big time. It's good that he's carrying a high average, and if he's still cutting down on the strikeouts that will help him to do that. But I definitely do hope those walks come up.

[GOYA]

I haven't seen him enough to really make a good call but his bat looks good while his defense could stand some improvement.