the 3 untouchables

[dougdirt]

Originally Posted by nate

I don't think there should be any untouchables.

I agree. I was asked the question if there were 3 guys, who would they be. That said, if there were 4 guys who I had to mark as 'untouchable' I would go Alonso, Stewart, Cozart and one of the LA kids (Duran/Rodriguez).

[gedred69]

Anyone's list will change, season to season. On my list right now, Wood is untouchable, but what does he do when promoted to AAA? Alonso? Only because we haven't seen enough of him yet. Heisey? It's now or never with him, he's a year older than the competition he's been playing against, (remember Larson). Stubbs? To me, he's shown flashes only, and after a good start at AAA his avg. is creeping lower. The organization has done everything imaginable to have him succeed, with ho-hum results. He has the tools though. But, in the grand scope, what are any of these guys going to bring in return? Doubtful anything better than personnel already in house.

[HokieRed]

Alonso should be untouchable, IMHO. I think he is a franchise player and will turn out to be of much greater value than any other player we now have in the minors, many of whom I like a lot. I think--I hope--we will be looking at him in a half dozen years like the Cardinals now look at Pujols, glad we didn't trade him, wondering how we ever considered it even possible.

[Betterread]

There are no untouchables.
Alonso is the best prospect, but now he' s got an injury.
Stewart is a reliever. Enough said.
Soto and Lotzkar have fallen off the phenom level.
I think Heisey has advanced to the top-level, and he is as close as anyone.
Wood needs more time. I have faith in him, but as a 4th or 5th crafty lefty starter.

[bubbachunk]

Originally Posted by Betterread

There are no untouchables.
Alonso is the best prospect, but now he' s got an injury.
Stewart is a reliever. Enough said.
Soto and Lotzkar have fallen off the phenom level.
I think Heisey has advanced to the top-level, and he is as close as anyone.
Wood needs more time. I have faith in him, but as a 4th or 5th crafty lefty starter.

Stewart is only being used as a reliever to cut down on his innings this year, he will be back to starting again next year.

[Betterread]

Originally Posted by bubbachunk

Stewart is only being used as a reliever to cut down on his innings this year, he will be back to starting again next year.

In my opinion, that would be a mistake from a development persepctive. And 'm not sure about your assumption. Why promote him to AAA if you're just cutting down on his innings. He is a proven stud as a reliever. As a starter, he failed miserably in college. As a minor leaguer, he has shown that he is a great 5 inning starter, maybe 6 innings. I am excited about an awesome reliever ready to join the Reds. I'm less excited about him as a project that needs 2-3 years of starting experience to even know what we have.
Prior examples come to mind - Thomas Pauly and Sean Watson.
Stewart has better stuff. The Reds need to handle him properly.

[bubbachunk]

Originally Posted by Betterread

In my opinion, that would be a mistake from a development persepctive. And 'm not sure about your assumption. Why promote him to AAA if you're just cutting down on his innings. He is a proven stud as a reliever. As a starter, he failed miserably in college. As a minor leaguer, he has shown that he is a great 5 inning starter, maybe 6 innings. I am excited about an awesome reliever ready to join the Reds. I'm less excited about him as a project that needs 2-3 years of starting experience to even know what we have.
Prior examples come to mind - Thomas Pauly and Sean Watson.
Stewart has better stuff. The Reds need to handle him properly.

We have a bunch of relievers and they are not that hard to find compared to a mid to top of the rotation starter. He was also only pitching 5-6 innings to get him reacclimated to starting as he had been only a reliever for the past couple of years.

[HokieRed]

Originally Posted by bubbachunk

We have a bunch of relievers and they are not that hard to find compared to a mid to top of the rotation starter. He was also only pitching 5-6 innings to get him reacclimated to starting as he had been only a reliever for the past couple of years.

Agree. I expect the organization to give Stewart a good chance as a starter before making any decision on this. I would be surprised if there's any decision about this until well into next season.

[dougdirt]

Originally Posted by Betterread

In my opinion, that would be a mistake from a development persepctive. And 'm not sure about your assumption. Why promote him to AAA if you're just cutting down on his innings. He is a proven stud as a reliever. As a starter, he failed miserably in college. As a minor leaguer, he has shown that he is a great 5 inning starter, maybe 6 innings. I am excited about an awesome reliever ready to join the Reds. I'm less excited about him as a project that needs 2-3 years of starting experience to even know what we have.
Prior examples come to mind - Thomas Pauly and Sean Watson.
Stewart has better stuff. The Reds need to handle him properly.

Stewart is being moved to the pen to limit his innings. Not an assumption. They are promoting him to AA because they think its where he will best learn to attack more professional hitters because he clearly had success against guys in AA (albeit in a short sample). As a starter in college where he 'failed miserably' he was facing metal bats and well, he had THREE starts at Texas Tech. Three. Its not going to take 2-3 years of experience to 'know what we have'. It may take him 2-3 years to build up his innings to 190 or so, but not to really know what you have.

[Redmachine2003]

The amazing thing about Stubbs is that he is not very productive at least this year and last. He doesn't score runs and doesn't drive in runs. With his speed, hitting in the top of the lineup, and the way he swipes bases he should score around 100 runs. But the production just isn't there for a guy who gets on base almost 40% of the time.

[dougdirt]

Originally Posted by Redmachine2003

The amazing thing about Stubbs is that he is not very productive at least this year and last. He doesn't score runs and doesn't drive in runs. With his speed, hitting in the top of the lineup, and the way he swipes bases he should score around 100 runs. But the production just isn't there for a guy who gets on base almost 40% of the time.

Sounds like you have an issue with the guys batting behind him then.

[Highlifeman21]

Originally Posted by nate

I don't think there should be any untouchables.

Quoted for truth.

Why limit your negotiations if you have untouchables? If a team wants your players bad enough, they'll pony up and offer you something worthwhile.

If they don't, then you keep your prized possessions.

[RedlegJake]

Untouchable is just a term meaning most valued prospects. I'm pleased and surprised Doug included Cozart and I wholeheartedly agree.

[Benihana]

There are no untouchables, but I have a slightly different take on why:

This system doesn't have any bona fide prospects at a position of true need. 18 months ago, the Reds had Cueto and Volquez but no rotation depth after Harang and Arroyo. They also had Joey Votto and a 38-year-old below average 1B. Finally, they had Jay Bruce, who was at the time the undisputed #1 prospect in all of baseball.

Those guys were untouchable.

These days, the Reds top prospect (Alonso) is blocked by a 25-year-old future All-Star and team captain. Their second best prospect (Stewart) is probably the closest thing to untouchable, but pitching is arguably one of the deeper parts of the major league roster, and it is unclear as to whether or not Stewart can/will be a starter in the majors. Relief prospects will always be worth less. The biggest prospects at positions of need are Cozart, Stubbs, and Heisey. Stubbs and Heisey are redundant, as neither will hit enough to start anywhere other than CF. Therefore, neither is untouchable as either one could team with Dickerson and replace the other. Finally, while I like Zack Cozart, the Reds have yet to demonstrate they are convinced that he is the long-term answer at SS. He has had a great year so far, but he is far from untouchable- particularly if the Reds go out (as so many wish they would) and acquire a young, 0-2 guy at the major league level (ie Yunel Escobar.)