Heyman says Rolen to the Reds

[westofyou]

Originally Posted by MattyMo4Life

Yeah...I was a Reds fan for the first 20 years of my life. My whole family loved the Reds (they still do), and I grew up going to Riverfront every chance I had. I just got tired of the excuses that management always made, and then they couldn't understand why fans stayed away. Cincinnati is a great baseball city, but the Reds are really good at disapointing their fans. I moved to St. Louis about 15 years ago, and I thought I would always be a Reds fan. Well, after seeing how the Cardinals treat their fans, it really made me look at things a different way. St. Louis and Cincinnati are so similar, but yet the organizations treat their fans totally different. The Cardinals management always tries to put a good team out on the field even if it does cost them a lot. The fans repay them by selling out the stadium again and again.

IMO, Reds fans and Cardinal fans may be two of the most similar types of fans in all of baseball. If the Reds would just spend some cash (wisely) to put a competetive team on the field, then the fans would come out to the ballpark. I can't blame fans for staying away after being disapointed time after time. At first I felt guilty for switching teams. It was like I was turning my back on a relative, but I don't anymore. I hear people say that they are loyal to their team, and will always be a fan of a certain team. I agree... to a point. Loyalty is great. I am a die hard Cardinals fan now, and probably will be forever. I tried giving the Reds another chance a few years ago when I moved back to Ohio. It didn't work though, I ended up buying Extra Innings from Direct TV so that I could watch the Cardinals. It just seems like loyalty usually goes one way, at least in Cincinnati. The fans are expected to follow the Reds no matter what. They can be disapointed year after year, but if they dare stay home and not go to the games, ownership blames the fans for why they can't spend money. I just got tired of that attitude. I want my team to be as loyal to me as I am to them. The Reds used to have a higher payroll than the Cardinals did. The Cardinals ownership invested a lot of money in the team to make the team better, and the attendance sky rocketted. I believe the same thing would happen in Cincinnati if ownership showed that they know what they are doing and they really tried.

I moved west 27 years ago, I still have a reds sticker on my car (the only sticker at all) I had 19 years of Giants and A's in my face, I live in M's country now, my first real love was the Tigers in the early 70's.

Not once did I think about how the owners treated the fans in that time, I'm not a baseball consumer I'm a baseball fan.

Everything else falls behind that.

[M2]

Originally Posted by Stormy

Man does this organization miss a guy like Barry. At this stage in his career, I don't expect much from Rolen in that regard though. You know it's curious: Toronto has been very public about it's dangling of Rolen for a month, and yet not a single actual contender even nibbles apparently. Meanwhile, a team light years removed from contention swoops in and pays the premium price moments before the deadline, even though they should have been the team with all the leverage. Puzzling.

I agree, though there weren't a lot of contenders shopping for 3Bs. The Phillies and Giants are the two teams that could have used him most. Frankly, what goes on inside Brian Sabean's head is a mystery.

[westofyou]

Originally Posted by M2

Frankly, what goes on inside Brian Sabean's head is a mystery.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGdlJWfx1GA

[Patrick Bateman]

Originally Posted by westofyou

Not once did I think about how the owners treated the fans in that time, I'm not a baseball consumer I'm a baseball fan.

Me too. I'm too big of a Reds fan that I could just switch teams and pretend that I could feel the same emotion for a team like the Cards as I could for the Reds.. For that, the Reds are deeply ingrained in me.

And I know the same thing is true for OBM. OBM, you take everything the Reds do to heart, I don't know you personally, but Im about 100% sure that you could never care about the Cards or any other team half as much as you care about the Reds.

I can tell you, that someday, whenever that is, that the Reds actually do contend, it will mean so much more after having put up with so much crap over the years. I think after a while, and I could be wrong here, fans of the Yanks and Sox marginalize winning, as it's just too common. With the Reds we'll have gone through so much bad baseball, that winning will mean so much more. Latching on to an already good team is too easy, and haven't gone through the crap that makes winning such a good feeling.

It's the same thing as me being a Blackhawk fan. I have watched nothing but bad hockey since becoming a fan, and for the longest time, had the worst ownership in all of sports. I tell you, this last season was so much more enjoyable then I could have ever imagined. Winning was such a rarity in the past that I felt spoiled watching such a good team. I just know it wouldn't have felt the same as a Redwings fan or whatever, that has seen it all before, and hasn't had to endure such a pathetic franchise.

[corkedbat]

There are good trades than end up looking bad through the lens of time because of things like injury. There are bad trades that end up looking good because of luck.

Trades can be and should be judged when they are made by rationale and how it helps its team toward the goal of contending. This deal has only one rationale for the Reds, give the front office a reason to tell the average fan we still got a chance this year.

By any measure of helping toward the future it fails on many levels. Even if it succeeds beyong the RO's wildest dreams, it's still a stupid trade.

[Falls City Beer]

Originally Posted by corkedbat

By any measure of helping toward the future it fails on many levels. Even if it succeeds beyong the RO's wildest dreams, it's still a stupid trade.

This is truly one of the wonkiest things I've ever read. Talent is better than deficiency. In winning seasons and losing ones.

[corkedbat]

As frustrated and po'd as this deal makes me, I could never switch teams. I might rant, I might watch fewer games, but if I ever decided to give up on the Reds all together, I'd just give up on MLB.

[SMcGavin]

Love when I come home from golfing to a 44 page thread generated in five hours.

Initial thoughts without reading the entire thread:
1. The 2009 Reds are better now. The 2010 Reds might be better, depending on if Rolen's contract prevents other guys from being signed. The 2011-2014 Reds are probably worse.
2. With the new emphasis on defense, you knew EE was not going to be the long-term guy at 3B.
3. Zach Stewart is a good but not great prospect, he's the type of guy you have to be willing to part with to add the missing piece. If the time was right I could live with this sort of deal. Since the 2009 Reds aren't going anywhere, I don't think this is that time.

My question is, what has to happen for this to be a good trade? The 2010 Reds have to contend with Rolen playing a key role, right?

I don't like it. Rolen's a good player and the Reds are better now that they have him, but if he's the difference between 76 and 78 wins who cares? His acquisition needs to be followed with others for 2010... and since available payroll just went down I'm not sure that is going to happen. If Jocketty wants to go this route he sends out Alonso or Frazier for a legit SS in the offseason - not saying I would necessarily go that route, but if he did that at least you couldn't accuse him of not having a plan.

[Kc61]

Based on reading the blogs, the Jays are sending money over with Rolen. Important factor in the exchange.

[flyer85]

the MLB Home Plate guys thought this was the worst(the Reds side) of the deadline deals(those over the last several days).

[westofyou]

Originally Posted by Kc61

Based on reading the blogs, the Jays are sending money over with Rolen. Important factor in the exchange.

They'll need it to send with Bronson.

[Falls City Beer]

Originally Posted by flyer85

the MLB Home Plate guys thought this was the worst(the Reds side) of the deadline deals(those over the last several days).

The cult of the minor leaguers is ascendant in baseball right now. Whoever gets the most minor leaguers wins the kewpie. That's as far as they look at it.

[UKFlounder]

They're supposedly paying Rolen's salary for this year, which helps, but there's still $11 million owed him next year.

I guess that getting a good, but past-his-prime player for no salary for 2 months is not necessarily bad, but does he make a difference? Do the Reds now win 77 games instead of 73 (just making up numbers)? Does that matter?

And will he make any difference over the full season next year?

I just don't know yet. They are a potentially better team with him, but is that potential difference enough to make them contenders? I don't think so.

My initial reaction to this is not positive,but maybe time will prove me wrong, especially if they actually follow this up with more moves to make next year's team stronger.

Will 2010 be a "now or never" year for the Reds?

Originally Posted by Kc61

Based on reading the blogs, the Jays are sending money over with Rolen. Important factor in the exchange.

[corkedbat]

Originally Posted by Falls City Beer

This is truly one of the wonkiest things I've ever read. Talent is better than deficiency. In winning seasons and losing ones.

Maybe, if it were about talent alone, but it's not. It's about winning and contending and how deals help you reash those goals. This deal sets back those goals, considerably, IMO

What's really wonky is acting like prospects have little if any value and you should just deal them enmasse regardless of their possible future value just to obtain and aging star for a meaningless year of service.

Dealing prospects - even top prospects is fine, but value that fits your situation.

The Reds today dealt a top 10 talent, one of their best arms (in a system with all too few arms), a kid that throws ground balls in a stadiumm that screams ground balls and an arm that could have helped this team in the next couple of years (either in the pen rotation) like he was a AA utility INF throw in.

When you look at the way other teams are valuing their young players and what they'e receiving for them in return - yeah, that alone makes it one very stupid trade. There's your wonk.

[flyer85]

Originally Posted by Falls City Beer

The cult of the minor leaguers is ascendant in baseball right now. Whoever gets the most minor leaguers wins the kewpie. That's as far as they look at it.

getting an expensive 35 year old third basemen with a bad back and shoulder seems like second prize in a contest where first prize is the clap.