Heyman says Rolen to the Reds

[Falls City Beer]

Originally Posted by flyer85

this isn't about EE, its about a 1 year rental of a 35 year old with a bad injury history who is having a likely last hurrah year.

Like the guys on Home Plate said, you could easily make an argument for this deal if it put a team over the top or even close to it. But the Reds are nowhere near that, instead there are huge holes to fill. Maybe prospects are overvalued, if so, they frittered a few away for minimal impact.

it would be interesting to see what PECOTA thinks of Rolen and EE for 2010.

I can't imagine EdE's future facing Shields, Beckett, Garza, CC on a week-in week-out basis is going to be too bright.

No more Dave Bush, Ian Snell, Brian Moehler to pad the stats.

[pedro]

I don't think was a "final piece" move. I think the 2010 Reds will look a lot different than this years team. Just my opinion.

[Falls City Beer]

Originally Posted by SMcGavin

Jay Bruce needs MLB at-bats and to not be 22 years old. Not leadership and professionalism training.

I was thinking pitch recognition tips. But your mileage may vary.

[flyer85]

Originally Posted by M2

And he seems to have caught whatever bug it is that infected Willie Greene and Austin Kearns. Encarnacion's not the player he was when he came into the majors at age 22.

Not about EE, the guy in the deal that bothers me is Stewart.

And IMO the 2010 version of Rolen has about a 90 percent chance of being less productive than the 2009 one.

In addition even if it works out well Rolen might be a 2 win addition. Walt has to find another 15.

[Always Red]

Originally Posted by westofyou

One thing for sure Scott Rolen's locker will be close to Jay Bruce's locker.

Originally Posted by SMcGavin

You're probably right but Bruce doesn't strike me as the type of guy who needs it.

IMO, Jay (and some of the other younger guys) can benefit from the professional approach and discipline of Rolen.

No words need be spoken. These guys are smart enough to watch and learn.

Jay Bruce just needs a touch of patience at the plate; that's all.

[SMcGavin]

Originally Posted by Falls City Beer

I was thinking pitch recognition tips. But your mileage may vary.

Nothing wrong with teaching (in any field) but it's not nearly as useful as actual experience.

[flyer85]

Originally Posted by pedro

I don't think was a "final piece" move. I think the 2010 Reds will look a lot different than this years team. Just my opinion.

I would hope so. Hard to imagine that this deal would not have been available in the off-season after the heavy lifting had been accomplished ... why not wait until then?

[corkedbat]

Originally Posted by Falls City Beer

Getting rid of an expensive hitter who can't hit or field is worth it by itself.

Without question, the Reds get better offensively and defensively. They still need pitching, lots of it. But they need an impact bat and glove almost as much. Fix what you can when you can.

What's the downside of waiting til the offseason?

- Two more months of EdE instead of Rolen? That gains us what? three-four more victories maybe. Doesn't get us into the playoffs, but it could cost us a draft slot or two.

- A couple of more months to shine up EdE and maybe even get a better deal for him? Yeah, there's just as a good a chance that he regresses, but no worse than the chance that Rolen's back gives out before the end of September.

- 6-8 more months to see if Stewart can be packaged with other of our "meaningless minor leagues" and bring in a young SS? Deal young guys if you want, but get maximuum return. There's no reason to believe that Stewart's value would not have increased with another year. A young SS would much more value than Rolen and there's no reason to believe that it would kill the the Rolen deal. In fact, there's even more reason to believe Stewart's inclusion was a panic move on WJ's part.

- Someone else would have swooped in and taken him out of our clutches? Sometimes if you think about a problem long enough, it just goes away. There's no reason though to believe that Jocketty was bidding against anyone but himself.

-

[Falls City Beer]

Originally Posted by SMcGavin

Nothing wrong with teaching (in any field) but it's not nearly as useful as actual experience.

I actually don't think they're separable. Rolen's seen a ton of pitchers a ton of times--Dusty and Jacoby haven't so they're not going to be able convey pitch by pitch breakdowns for him. Sure, the only way he'll learn is experience, but having an encyclopedic knowledge of current active pitchers' repertoires is a pretty valuable thing.

[pedro]

Originally Posted by flyer85

I would hope so. Hard to imagine that this deal would not have been available in the off-season after the heavy lifting had been accomplished ... why not wait until then?

I think they were looking for a culture change this year. This team needs some leadership IMO. I know a lot of folks think that's BS, but I don't.

[M2]

Originally Posted by pedro

I don't think was a "final piece" move. I think the 2010 Reds will look a lot different than this years team. Just my opinion.

I'd expect the Reds to do far less than is required. Yet they might play a more engaging brand of baseball despite that.

I'll tell you one thing. Scott Rolen at 3B would be my convincer to shift Brandon Phillips to SS.

[BuckeyeRedleg]

Originally Posted by corkedbat

What's the downside of waiting til the offseason?

- Two more months of EdE instead of Rolen? That gains us what? three-four more victories maybe. Doesn't get us into the playoffs, but it could cost us a draft slot or two.

- A couple of more months to shine up EdE and maybe even get a better deal for him? Yeah, there's kust a good a chance that he regresses, but no worse than the chance that Rolen's back gives out before the end of September.

- 6-8 more months to see if Stewart can be packaged with other of our "meaningless minor leagues" and bring in a young SS? Deal young guys if you want, but get maximuum return. There's no reason to believe that Stewart's value would not have increased with another year. A young SS would much more value than Rolen and there's no reason to believe that it would kill the the Rolen deal. In fact, there's even more reason to believe Stewart's inclusion was a panic move on WJ's part.

- Someone else would have swooped in and taken him out of our clutches? Sometimes if you think about a problem long enough, it just goes away. There's no reason though to believe that Jocketty was bidding against anyone but himself.-

This just makes too much sense.

[flyer85]

Originally Posted by Always Red

IMO, Jay (and some of the other younger guys) can benefit from the professional approach and discipline of Rolen.

No words need be spoken. These guys are smart enough to watch and learn.

Jay Bruce just needs a touch of patience at the plate; that's all.

Red have been selling this subjective stuff for years ... that guys are somehow more valuable than what the objective data tells.

Interesting the Rolen wore out his welcome in both Philly and St. Louis.

[Falls City Beer]

Originally Posted by M2

I'd expect the Reds to do far less than is required. Yet they might play a more engaging brand of baseball despite that.

I think this is right. They have a mountain to climb, but I don't feel they've sacrificed anything much at all in order to gain a great hitter and defender who plays a position where the Reds have exactly no options right now. And that's better than peeing down my leg. It's talent, not bull, as you've said.

[IslandRed]

Originally Posted by Falls City Beer

I can't imagine EdE's future facing Shields, Beckett, Garza, CC on a week-in week-out basis is going to be too bright.

That's a tough division to give away bunches of extra outs on defense, too.

In the end, there's a good chance I'll think the price was too high. But as far as I was concerned, "new third baseman" was pretty high on the 2010 Reds to-do list, and today it's checked off. So we'll see where it goes from here.