Heyman says Rolen to the Reds

[11larkin11]

So this move basically block Frazier. If we go through with Votto to LF, Alonso at first (although we all know he isn't safe anymore), Rolen at third, can we PLEASE try Phillips at short and Frazier at second? That would give us a HELL of an infield offense. Realistically, in 2010 (Mid-May when Alonso/Frazier are up)

Stubbs CF
Bruce RF
Alonso 1B
Votto LF
Rolen 3B
Phillips SS
Frazier 2B
Hanigan/Hernandez C

Bench
Hanigan/Hernandez
2 of Heisey/Dickerson/Gomes/Nix
Janish (Cozart?)
Rosales/Sutton/Barker(pop)

[BuckeyeRedleg]

Originally Posted by edabbs44

Many wanted Milton Bradley this offseason for a multi-year contract. Funny how he makes Rolen look like Gehrig.

Hilarious.

Did Milton Bradley require something back, other than money, to acquire him?

Apples and oranges, my friend.

One other thing, MB is tied with Mr. Scott Gehrig in HR's this year. He's actually not too far off from where Rolen is across the board offensively, which is surprising considering Rolen is playing great and Bradley is garbage, right?

And I wonder, who was playing the part of Gehrig in 2007 an 2008? I'd say Milton Bradley.

[HokieRed]

Originally Posted by 11larkin11

So this move basically block Frazier. If we go through with Votto to LF, Alonso at first (although we all know he isn't safe anymore), Rolen at third, can we PLEASE try Phillips at short and Frazier at second? That would give us a HELL of an infield offense. Realistically, in 2010 (Mid-May when Alonso/Frazier are up)

Stubbs CF
Bruce RF
Alonso 1B
Votto LF
Rolen 3B
Phillips SS
Frazier 2B
Hanigan/Hernandez C

Bench
Hanigan/Hernandez
2 of Heisey/Dickerson/Gomes/Nix
Janish (Cozart?)
Rosales/Sutton/Barker(pop)

This is the lineup I've been proposing for a while. I'd prefer to see upgrades, think we should always be looking for upgrades. But short of that, this seems to me the lineup to hope for one year from today.

[corkedbat]

Originally Posted by HokieRed

Where I agree with your assumption is that this deal should be understood as Stewart for Rolen. Where, in all due respect, I have to say that you're only reflecting an opinion is in the judgment about "special" and "decent." All kinds of guys with "special" arms never develop into anything noteworthy. Stewart may; I really liked him myself. I wouldn't be surprised if he did. That's the bet the Jays are making and that's why we got Rolen. Scott Rolen's immediately the first or second best position player on the Reds. You're not going to get that for a guy without a position and a possible reliever. We got him for real value--Zach Stewart--which is how real trades are made, something WJ understands a lot better than most of the armchair GM's on this board.

Unless Rolen factors into the plans for two or three years down the line he takes $11M dollars away from someone who might. He also takes an arm out of the equation for a pitching staff that needs arms badly or at the least hewastes a valuable trading chip.

He should have been able to land Rolen without a prospect of Stewart's level or walked away and let Riccardi sweat. Chances are greater that we could have landed him for less in a waiver or offseason deal. Riccardi got a fair return on Rolen and then he got Stewart to boot. Jocketty folded like a deck chair.

Walt Jocketty vaunted accumen as a GM vanished to me last winter when he actually signed WillyT and thought he had done something. Today's deal (and his stated intentions to extend Rolen) just further confirmed that there's little hope under his "leadership".

[Big Klu]

Originally Posted by Always Red

Now that EE's Red's career has ended (for this tour, at least), he reminds me a lot of... (without looking at BR) Gary Redus.

I though Redus was going to be the next big thing when he came up.

Of course they played different positions, but Redus also had tons of "potential" that he never did reach (or was his "potential" over-rated and he did just fine??).

EE should hope to wind up with the career that Redus did- Gary played until he was 37 years old.

Edwin Encarnacion reminds me of a righty-hitting Willie Greene.

Originally Posted by NDRed

Reading this thread you would think that Rolen will need a wheelchair to get from the dugout to third base.

In reality, since being full time in 1997, Rolen has only played less than 100 games in one season- 2005. He played 142 games in 2006, 112 in 2007, 115 in 2008, and will probably play in about 130 games in 2009. And that is the worst stretch in his career.

He is a 6 time All Star, 7 time Gold Glove, and as for his "declining power" he actually has better power numbers this year than 2007 and 2008.

By the way, Buddy Bell was 33 when the Reds got him and he had 3 1/2 pretty decent years here.

I think this deal is very similar to the one that brought Bell to the Reds in 1985. (And he turned 34 about a month after the trade, so the age similarity is even closer.)

[Kc61]

Originally Posted by Stormy

That's precisely who this deal appeals to. It may be the primary rationale behind it, or just a convenient by-product. Walt and Dusty have stereotypes of the kind of players they want, and it seems to have precious little to do with projected production. Unfortunately, this will work just about as well as the 2009 speed and defense mantra/model did, sans offense and pitching.

I wouldn't demean fans who are happy that the Reds just acquired a future Hall of Fame third baseman for an error-prone player and two prospects.

See, some fans aren't that interested in which Carolina Mudcats may help in 2013. Some fans think that 8 years of losing records is enough and it's time to get some proven talent in here to start winning some games now.

I know all the experts focused on the minors are excited about the farm system. But nobody has ever presented me -- and I've asked a dozen times -- for a realistic roadmap to success from the Reds minors. Because nobody can -- even the greatest prospects, the Jay Bruces and Homer Baileys, can struggle for quite some time.

The Reds may have paid a steep price for this move, but if you watch the current Reds -- the Reds, not the Mudcats or the Bats or the Mustangs -- you know that they sorely need some guys who know how to play this game professionally and how to win on occasion. And it's not just the casual fan who thinks it would be good to have some players like that.

[HokieRed]

Originally Posted by corkedbat

Unless Rolen factors into the plans for two or three years down the line he takes $11M dollars away from someone who might. He also takes an arm out of the equation for a pitching staff that needs arms badly or at the least hewastes a valuable trading chip.

He should have been able to land Rolen without a prospect of Stewart's level or walked away and let Riccardi sweat. Chances are greater that we could have landed him for less in a waiver or offseason deal. Riccardi got a fair return on Rolen and then he got Stewart to boot. Jocketty folded like a deck chair.

Walt Jocketty vaunted accumen as a GM vanished to me last winter when he actually signed WillyT and thought he had done something. Today's deal (and his stated intentions to extend Rolen) just further confirmed that there's little hope under his "leadership".

Don't agree. Don't get confused by the fact this trade looks like an exchange of third basemen. EE is not a third basemen; he is, IMHO, somebody for Toronto management to throw to the fans as a "replacement." The deal was about Stewart. No way we get a player of Rolen's caliber without Stewart being included.

[BuckeyeRedleg]

Originally Posted by corkedbat

Walt Jocketty vaunted accumen as a GM vanished to me last winter when he actually signed WillyT and thought he had done something. Today's deal (and his stated intentions to extend Rolen) just further confirmed that there's little hope under his "leadership".

Yep, those two moves, alone, are reason to worry about the future of this organization under his watch.

I'll just have to bring up Mem's word here, because it's is so appropriate after these two moves.

Malpractice. Not an overreaction or hyperbole either.

[WVPacman]

I for one am GLAD to see EE off this team.he never showed no emotion,played like he was'nt having fun and played like he did'nt care if he helped the reds win or not.When Chris Welsh, said tonight that EE came out of Bakers office with his fist up in the air b/c he was glad he got traded then that done it for me.I am glad he is gone and I don't want him back in a reds uniform.

[deltachi8]

I'm happy Edwin will get a fresh start in Toronto and wish him the best.

As for the Reds end... eh...there is a reason I am paying more and more attention to the Astros these days...

[corkedbat]

Originally Posted by 11larkin11

So this move basically block Frazier. If we go through with Votto to LF, Alonso at first (although we all know he isn't safe anymore), Rolen at third, can we PLEASE try Phillips at short and Frazier at second? That would give us a HELL of an infield offense. Realistically, in 2010 (Mid-May when Alonso/Frazier are up)

Stubbs CF
Bruce RF
Alonso 1B
Votto LF
Rolen 3B
Phillips SS
Frazier 2B
Hanigan/Hernandez C

Bench
Hanigan/Hernandez
2 of Heisey/Dickerson/Gomes/Nix
Janish (Cozart?)
Rosales/Sutton/Barker(pop)

I don't think it blocks Frazier at all. I think he just bides his time in Lousiville next year (or even on the Reds bench). as a super-sub until Rolen goes DL. It probably somewhat lessens the probability that he is dealt.

[MWM]

I can't be objective here. Scott Rolen is my favorite baseball player of the last 20 years not named Larkin or Griffey. A good deal for the Reds? Maybe. But i love the fact that Scott Rolen is on the Reds.

[11larkin11]

Originally Posted by HokieRed

This is the lineup I've been proposing for a while. I'd prefer to see upgrades, think we should always be looking for upgrades. But short of that, this seems to me the lineup to hope for one year from today.

I think thats actually a pretty good lineup. Alonso/Frazier are unknowns but are polished with high floors. Stubbs is unknown, but can't be worse than Taveras and has a good eye. Bruce is bound to turn it around, especially if he hits in front of Alonso/Votto. Defensively, we should be fine all around, with GG potential at RF, CF, SS, 3B.

THROW THE BANK AT BRANDON WEBB!!! Sign him and a guy like Davis, Capuano or Pineiro.

Webb
Volquez
Cueto
Davis
Whoever

[Stormy]

Originally Posted by Kc61

I wouldn't demean fans who are happy that the Reds just acquired a future Hall of Fame third baseman for an error-prone player and two prospects.

See, some fans aren't that interested in which Carolina Mudcats may help in 2013. Some fans think that 8 years of losing records is enough and it's time to get some proven talent in here to start winning some games now.

I know all the minor league experts are excited about the farm system. But nobody has ever presented me -- and I've asked a dozen times -- for a realistic roadmap to success from the Reds minors. Because nobody can -- even the greatest prospects, the Jay Bruces and Homer Baileys, can struggle for quite some time.

The Reds may have paid a steep price for this move, but if you watch the current Reds -- the Reds, not the Mudcats or the Bats or the Mustangs -- you know that they sorely need some guys who know how to play this game professionally and how to win on occasion.

KC ~ I'm sorry, as I didn't mean for it to be taken that way. Scott Rolen is, and has been, a great player and we are certainly fortunate to get to watch him play. I'm looking forward to it, as well, and I'm not going to miss EdE much. I'm simply very concerned what this signals for the big picture, which I don't believe Walt has a grasp of in regards to this type of market. We don't have an unlimited budget, he hasn't cleared any payroll space, he hasn't addressed most of the areas of need since his arrival, and the breathing room for 2010 just got a lot tighter. Rolen will be utterly wasted if we return this same cast at SP, SS, LF etc...

The timing of it, the steep price, the failure to exert any leverage, the recent trend of Rolen's health and production all make it very dubious to me. Though, like you, I relish the fact that for a change we are actually adding an impact baseball player, rather than shedding contracts and waiting.

[hebroncougar]

Originally Posted by 11larkin11

So this move basically block Frazier. If we go through with Votto to LF, Alonso at first (although we all know he isn't safe anymore), Rolen at third, can we PLEASE try Phillips at short and Frazier at second? That would give us a HELL of an infield offense. Realistically, in 2010 (Mid-May when Alonso/Frazier are up)

Stubbs CF
Bruce RF
Alonso 1B
Votto LF
Rolen 3B
Phillips SS
Frazier 2B
Hanigan/Hernandez C

Bench
Hanigan/Hernandez
2 of Heisey/Dickerson/Gomes/Nix
Janish (Cozart?)
Rosales/Sutton/Barker(pop)

I'd be SHOCKED if Alonso sniffs the majors before 2011 after his performance this year, I don't think he was overwhelming at all in High A, and that is a heck of a long way from the bigs.