Stolen Bases

[bucksfan2]

I don't know if I am alone, but I have been disappointed with the Reds running game this season. I thought with a team that lacked pop, the running game would play a larger roll this season. Taveras talked about getting 100 stolen bases this season. But as the season played out, the Reds just don't run that much. I was especially surprised to see Stubbs walk to lead off the game and not attempt to steal a base. It seems that all the talk about a running game in the spring disappeared when the regular season started.

[RANDY IN INDY]

Taveras has yet to figure out how to steal first. When he does happen to get there, his technique is sorely lacking. Being fast doesn't always equate to being a thief on the basepaths. I don't even think Taveras is a good fit for entering the game late when a team needs a steal ala Charlie Finley and Herb Washington. Really lacking for a guy with his speed. Gotta wonder what parts of his game he works on when he practices. Hits lots of fly balls, can't seem to steal a base, and gets terrible jumps and awful routes on defense. There is my Taveras rant for the day.

[Razor Shines]

Originally Posted by RANDY IN CHAR NC

Taveras has yet to figure out how to steal first. When he does happen to get there, his technique is sorely lacking. Being fast doesn't always equate to being a thief on the basepaths. I don't even think Taveras is a good fit for entering the game late when a team needs a steal ala Charlie Finley and Herb Washington. Really lacking for a guy with his speed. Gotta wonder what parts of his game he works on when he practices. Hits lots of fly balls, can't seem to steal a base, and gets terrible jumps and awful routes on defense. There is my Taveras rant for the day.

You make it sound as if he's not very good.

[RANDY IN INDY]

I just don't understand why guys like Taveras don't hit the ball on the ground and try to use their speed. Every time he hits a ball in the air, it makes me cringe. Maybe he is so bad that working on his game to make his speed more valuable is just not going to help him.

[durl]

But Dusty seems content to keep speedy guys at the top of the lineup as long as they run fast. He's willing to have fewer men on base just to create an opportunity to steal a base.

At some point, you'd think that a manager would adjust his decisions to fit the capabilities of the team rather than thinking they should fit his mold of what he WANTS to happen.

[westofyou]

Getting on base is key to stealing, Taveras is pretty deficient at that.

These days slide steps and throw overs have killed the running game, but the real key is getting on base and only a small number have achieved a large amount of steals with a sub standard on base percentage, and those guys tend to make a HUGE amount of outs vs the league... oh joy!!

SEASON
MODERN (1900-)
OBA vs. the league average displayed only--not a sorting criteria
PLATE APPEARANCES displayed only--not a sorting criteria
OUTS displayed only--not a sorting criteria

STOLEN BASES                  YEAR     SB       OBA      PA      OUTS    
1    Rickey Henderson         1982      130     .070      656      442   
2    Lou Brock                1974      118     .033      701      485   
3    Vince Coleman            1985      110    -.008      692      500   
4    Vince Coleman            1987      109     .024      702      478   
5    Rickey Henderson         1983      108     .086      622      395   
6    Vince Coleman            1986      107    -.030      670      487   
7    Maury Wills              1962      104     .010      759      518   
8    Rickey Henderson         1980      100     .089      722      453   
9    Ron LeFlore              1980       97     .008      587      413   
T10  Ty Cobb                  1915       96     .153      700      402   
T10  Omar Moreno              1980       96    -.023      745      560   
12   Maury Wills              1965       94     .009      710      517   
13   Rickey Henderson         1988       93     .069      647      412   
14   Tim Raines               1983       90     .061      720      464   
15   Clyde Milan              1912       88     .035      674      455   
16   Rickey Henderson         1986       87     .029      701      480   
T17  Ty Cobb                  1911       83     .119      654      354   
T17  Willie Wilson            1979       83     .017      640      433   
T19  Vince Coleman            1988       81    -.007      679      500   
T19  Eddie Collins            1910       81     .065      660      417   
T21  Bob Bescher              1911       80     .040      716      444   
T21  Rickey Henderson         1985       80     .092      654      398   
T23  Willie Wilson            1980       79     .025      745      495   
T23  Dave Collins             1980       79     .036      613      416   
T25  Tim Raines               1982       78     .024      731      497   
T25  Ron LeFlore              1979       78     .020      654      452   
T25  Marquis Grissom          1992       78    -.002      707      505   
T25  Jose Reyes               2007       78     .012      765      523

[flyer85]

Unless you are stealing at above a 75% clip the running isn't having a positive impact anyway.

[RANDY IN INDY]

If you have a couple of guys that can get on and steal a base, the "threat" of the stolen base can sometimes have a very positive effect. It bothers the pitcher, the catcher, the second baseman and the shortstop. When you have a guy like Taveras, who can't get on or is not really even a threat to run when he does get on, (if this year is an indication, and I think it is) the running game is worthless. The Reds have a much better shot of stealing a base when Dickerson is on. I am not really sure why Dusty doesn't seem to like, or have much faith in Dickerson's abilities. I think he can be a solid major league performer.

[bucksfan2]

Originally Posted by RANDY IN CHAR NC

If you have a couple of guys that can get on and steal a base, the "threat" of the stolen base can sometimes have a very positive effect. It bothers the pitcher, the catcher, the second baseman and the shortstop. When you have a guy like Taveras, who can't get on or is not really even a threat to run when he does get on, (if this year is an indication, and I think it is) the running game is worthless. The Reds have a much better shot of stealing a base when Dickerson is on. I am not really sure why Dusty doesn't seem to like, or have much faith in Dickerson's abilities. I think he can be a solid major league performer.

I agree with this. But even when Taveras has gotten on base, he hasn't run all that much. I was shocked last night to see Stubbs get on base to start the game off and not attempt to take 2nd. Then when he got to 2nd I thought he would take a chance at 3rd, but it didn't happen. Then a fly ball and double play later the inning is over.

FWIW I think Dickerson at this stage is a poor base stealer. He will get better, but he is pretty unrefined.

[TRF]

Originally Posted by RANDY IN CHAR NC

I just don't understand why guys like Taveras don't hit the ball on the ground and try to use their speed. Every time he hits a ball in the air, it makes me cringe. Maybe he is so bad that working on his game to make his speed more valuable is just not going to help him.

funny, everytime i follow a game online I see this happen. Taveras grounds out to pitcher. or SS. or 2B. occasionally to 3B.

He can't even pull the ball down the line. He's an automatic 0-5, 1-4 at best.

And when he gets on, he's timid.

I'm not one that care too much about SB% IF said % has a nice quantity. 28 SB's and 7-10 CS's doesn't do it for me.

55-65 SB's and 15-20 CS's... about the same percentage, but the quantity allows for a rep. that allows for teams to focus on the runner more, and that can be exploited.

[westofyou]

The effect a runner with speed has when on is a whole other tree of thoughts, it changes everyones approach, the pitchers mechanics, the fielders placement and task list, outfield positioning, the catchers pitch preference, the hitters task list and on and on... it's a big part of what makes this game great.

And that's why station to station ball bores me to tears, but bad base running is even worse for an extended period of time.

[RedsManRick]

Until and unless we have enough guys on base to begin with, the speed question is functionally irrelevant. Taveras' problem with his low SB have as much, if not more, to do with his inability to find 1B to begin with as it does with what he does or doesn't do once he's there.

[bucksfan2]

Originally Posted by RedsManRick

Until and unless we have enough guys on base to begin with, the speed question is functionally irrelevant. Taveras' problem with his low SB have as much, if not more, to do with his inability to find 1B to begin with as it does with what he does or doesn't do once he's there.

Dickerson is a pretty good OBP guy, especially since his poor start. He has a total of 14 SB attempts.

Drew Stubbs in his limited time has yet to attempt to steal.

Last year Taveras attempted to steal 75 times, so far this year he has attempted 31.

During Dusty's tenure, Phillips has become a worse base stealer.

It isn't necessarily the getting on base thing for me. I realize that the Reds have sucked at that this year. Its that when they get on base they aren't putting things in motion. They aren't steeling base, they aren't hitting and running, they aren't making the defense move. They really aren't putting much, if any pressure on the defense by stealing.

[nate]

Originally Posted by bucksfan2

Dickerson is a pretty good OBP guy, especially since his poor start. He has a total of 14 SB attempts.

Drew Stubbs in his limited time has yet to attempt to steal.

Last year Taveras attempted to steal 75 times, so far this year he has attempted 31.

During Dusty's tenure, Phillips has become a worse base stealer.

It isn't necessarily the getting on base thing for me. I realize that the Reds have sucked at that this year. Its that when they get on base they aren't putting things in motion. They aren't steeling base, they aren't hitting and running, they aren't making the defense move. They really aren't putting much, if any pressure on the defense by stealing.

I think Stubbs has attempted to steal a couple times but there was a foul and then a walk on the attempt. It might've even been during the same AB.

[RANDY IN INDY]

If the Reds were smart, they would get a Joe Morgan or an Eric Davis to work with their guys who have some speed and a "chance" to reach base. Dickerson, Stubbs, and their bench guys who might have some speed. Work hard with the minor leaguers coming up. Heck, this might be one of the worst base running franchises in all of baseball. The base-running is worse than pathetic. They need to learn how to get a lead. How to read a pitcher's move. How to get a good secondary lead. Know where the outfielders are playing. Cut the bases without the "Sunday drive" wide turns. Know who has the poor arms that you can take a base on. When you have a franchise that can't go out and sign the stars, you better take a big interest in the minor league system and getting guys to play the game the right way. I know that the "Right Way" label rubs a lot of folks on this board the "Wrong Way," but it is essential for a franchise like the Reds. When you don't always have all the horses, you can't beat yourself as much as they do. The fundamentals are not being taught and stressed nearly enough and they haven't been for a long time. The game is hard enough without playing it stupid.