Granderson Available?

[bucksfan2]

Drew Stubbs looks an awful lot like a young Granderson. If his OBP begins to increase, I think it will, he will be a very productive CF for the Reds. Don't look now but his OPS is only off .008 points from Jay Bruce's last year.

[edabbs44]

Originally Posted by bucksfan2

Drew Stubbs looks an awful lot like a young Granderson. If his OBP begins to increase, I think it will, he will be a very productive CF for the Reds. Don't look now but his OPS is only off .008 points from Jay Bruce's last year.

And .076 points off from Bruce's first 28 games. And he is almost 4 years older than when Bruce debuted.

Stubbs has done better than I think some of us anticipated. But these are two different situations and the comparison is pretty unfair to Bruce.

[Sea Ray]

Originally Posted by edabbs44

And .076 points off from Bruce's first 28 games. And he is almost 4 years older than when Bruce debuted.

Stubbs has done better than I think some of us anticipated. But these are two different situations and the comparison is pretty unfair to Bruce.

In my book age does not give Bruce a pass. Age gave guys like Edwin and Austin Kearns a pass and we eventually saw that age never did improve their game. In the case of Jay Bruce one year has not improved his numbers. Prior to his injuries this year, his numbers were not better than 2008. I hope Jay Bruce is not one of those guys who peaks in his early 20s like Willie Greene did but some guys do

[edabbs44]

Originally Posted by Sea Ray

In my book age does not give Bruce a pass. Age gave guys like Edwin and Austin Kearns a pass and we eventually saw that age never did improve their game. In the case of Jay Bruce one year has not improved his numbers. Prior to his injuries this year, his numbers were not better than 2008. I hope Jay Bruce is not one of those guys who peaks in his early 20s like Willie Greene did but some guys do

It's an unfair comparison with age being the lead reason.

[Mario-Rijo]

Originally Posted by Sea Ray

Why should "we fans" ignore reality? If you want to stick your head in the sand, fine, go for it but I choose to live in the real world. To a large extent money determines who gets what in MLB. The Reds are drawing about 10K a game these days. That's not a team that can commit itself to a $25mill deal. The only way this works is if a big contract like Arroyo or Harang goes back to the Tigers

It makes us demand little, that's why! But who says it's reality anyway, it's an assumption, perhaps a very good educated guess even but only reality if we continue to really keep our heads in the sand. We really should start demanding a better product, doesn't mean we will get it but the less we ask for the less we get.

[Sea Ray]

Originally Posted by Mario-Rijo

It makes us demand little, that's why! But who says it's reality anyway, it's an assumption, perhaps a very good educated guess even but only reality if we continue to really keep our heads in the sand. We really should start demanding a better product, doesn't mean we will get it but the less we ask for the less we get.

Demand a better product all you want but do it with the understanding that payroll will not rise to the levels of the Cubs or Cardinals. It's like joining a Fantasy league but your team will have a lower payroll than your opponents.

I think even given these restraints the Reds should do better but it isn't easy. Just look at 2009 team payrolls sometime and you'll see a reason why The Reds and Pirates are at the bottom of the division.

The St Louis Cardinals are the only division leader with an Opening Day payroll of under $100mill. However they've added a great deal of payroll since with Holliday, DeRosa and Lugo. Teams with low payrolls do compete every now and then like the A's and Rays but history shows us that such success cannot be sustained.

So bringing this back to Grandy, he's available to a team with deep pockets. Teams like the Reds need not apply, unfortunately.

[Mario-Rijo]

Originally Posted by Sea Ray

Demand a better product all you want but do it with the understanding that payroll will not rise to the levels of the Cubs or Cardinals. It's like joining a Fantasy league but your team will have a lower payroll than your opponents.

I think even given these restraints the Reds should do better but it isn't easy. Just look at 2009 team payrolls sometime and you'll see a reason why The Reds and Pirates are at the bottom of the division.

The St Louis Cardinals are the only division leader with an Opening Day payroll of under $100mill. However they've added a great deal of payroll since with Holliday, DeRosa and Lugo. Teams with low payrolls do compete every now and then like the A's and Rays but history shows us that such success cannot be sustained.

So bringing this back to Grandy, he's available to a team with deep pockets. Teams like the Reds need not apply, unfortunately.

So you are asking me to never again expect sustained winning for the Reds and just live with it? Ha, sorry my friend it ain't happening. If we are gonna end up the Marlins at best they can just bury my fandom now. I refuse to buy into that state of mind. The moment they deal off a star (who is producing like one) like Votto or Bruce in his prime due to $$$ they can have this team and I'll go back to watching little leaguers only.

[alloverjr]

I'd save the coin and give Dickerson a fair shot.

[thatcoolguy_22]

Originally Posted by Sea Ray

Demand a better product all you want but do it with the understanding that payroll will not rise to the levels of the Cubs or Cardinals. It's like joining a Fantasy league but your team will have a lower payroll than your opponents.

I think even given these restraints the Reds should do better but it isn't easy. Just look at 2009 team payrolls sometime and you'll see a reason why The Reds and Pirates are at the bottom of the division.

The St Louis Cardinals are the only division leader with an Opening Day payroll of under $100mill. However they've added a great deal of payroll since with Holliday, DeRosa and Lugo. Teams with low payrolls do compete every now and then like the A's and Rays but history shows us that such success cannot be sustained.

So bringing this back to Grandy, he's available to a team with deep pockets. Teams like the Reds need not apply, unfortunately.

I'm tired of the Reds can not compete because of the payroll argument. Look at the Rays, Twins, Marlins, etc... It can be done. It takes competent GM'ing (the ability to make successful trades and evaluate youth in the minors and the draft). Your right though, Granderson will not don a Cincinnati uniform anytime soon because of his payroll numbers but, thats a direct result of giving LTC to 2 average SP and 1 Closer... or in other words poor GM'ing.

[thatcoolguy_22]

Originally Posted by Mario-Rijo

So you are asking me to never again expect sustained winning for the Reds and just live with it? Ha, sorry my friend it ain't happening. If we are gonna end up the Marlins at best they can just bury my fandom now. I refuse to buy into that state of mind. The moment they deal off a star (who is producing like one) like Votto or Bruce in his prime due to $$$ they can have this team and I'll go back to watching little leaguers only.

But the moment they deal a star like Votto for a handful of uber prospects is the day I will have hope for this franchise.

[Sea Ray]

Originally Posted by Mario-Rijo

So you are asking me to never again expect sustained winning for the Reds and just live with it? Ha, sorry my friend it ain't happening. If we are gonna end up the Marlins at best they can just bury my fandom now. I refuse to buy into that state of mind. The moment they deal off a star (who is producing like one) like Votto or Bruce in his prime due to $$$ they can have this team and I'll go back to watching little leaguers only.

I respect and envy your optimism. I really do. MLB has closed the economic gap a little in recent years but it's still an uphill battle for markets like ours. You're asking for the Reds to be luckier than other franchises because the playing field is not level. A lot of Reds fans have seen this reality and done exactly what you suggest in your last sentence. I'm glad you're still with them.

[Sea Ray]

Originally Posted by thatcoolguy_22

I'm tired of the Reds can not compete because of the payroll argument. Look at the Rays, Twins, Marlins, etc... It can be done. It takes competent GM'ing (the ability to make successful trades and evaluate youth in the minors and the draft). You're right though, Granderson will not don a Cincinnati uniform anytime soon because of his payroll numbers but, thats a direct result of giving LTC to 2 average SP and 1 Closer... or in other words poor GM'ing.

They can compete every now and then which is what the Rays, Marlins and Twins have done but that's it. Even those franchises haven't mastered competing year in and year out. Don't think that a team like the Twins can compete with the big boys when they have to trade guys like Johan Santana whereas the rich clubs don't.

[TheNext44]

Originally Posted by Sea Ray

They can compete every now and then which is what the Rays, Marlins and Twins have done but that's it. Even those franchises haven't mastered competing year in and year out. Don't think that a team like the Twins can compete with the big boys when they have to trade guys like Johan Santana whereas the rich clubs don't.

Unfortunately, you are correct. The current state of affairs in MLB has made it impossible for a mid to small market team compete year after year. The best they can hope for is to be decent every year, and hope for a lot of good luck every few years, like the Twins do.

During the last 5 years, there have been 40 playoff spots. 6 teams have taken 20 of those spots, The Yankees, Red Sox, Dodgers, Cardinals, Angels, and Phillies all of whom have big payrolls. Pretty much every year, at least half of the 8 playoff spots are taken up by at least 4 of these teams, leaving the other 24 teams to battle for the remaining 4 spots.

[thatcoolguy_22]

Originally Posted by Sea Ray

They can compete every now and then which is what the Rays, Marlins and Twins have done but that's it. Even those franchises haven't mastered competing year in and year out. Don't think that a team like the Twins can compete with the big boys when they have to trade guys like Johan Santana whereas the rich clubs don't.

When the Twins trade Santana or the Marlins trade Cabrera, they both restock. Either team might not have the talent every year to compete with the Red Sox or Yankees but both have a profound way of infusing their minor leagues with premium talent while maintaining a competent 25 man roster. Say what you want but the signings of Alex Gonzalez, Mike Stanton, Wily Taveras, Eric Milton, etc etc have hamstrung this team

[Sea Ray]

Originally Posted by thatcoolguy_22

When the Twins trade Santana or the Marlins trade Cabrera, they both restock. Either team might not have the talent every year to compete with the Red Sox or Yankees but both have a profound way of infusing their minor leagues with premium talent while maintaining a competent 25 man roster. Say what you want but the signings of Alex Gonzalez, Mike Stanton, Wily Taveras, Eric Milton, etc etc have hamstrung this team

The teams that trade Cabrera and Santana are trading known talents for potential talents. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't but the risk is all on the small market team. The team that gets Santana knows what they're getting. Can you name who the Pirates received for Aramis Ramirez?

The only reason the Marlins and Twins trade these guys is because they're so good they can't afford to pay them. If money were not an issue these guys never would be traded and that's not right