The Jocketty Files

[edabbs44]

Originally Posted by Spring~Fields

Pretty clear, concise, and straight forward, should be pretty easy for you to respond in like manner as you have intimated to me above.

If you think that this was clear, concise and straight-forward then I guess we are on a different level of understanding. Especially when you ask me to define something that is intangible.

It is quite obvious that I'm not going to sit here and chart out my expected revenues, attendance levels and liquidity based upon the non-signings of those guys. And I am definitely not going to try and measure something that can't be measured.

But I would have to say that, knowing what we know now, these signings didn't work out as expected by some. And they have had a negative impact on the franchise as a whole.

[Spring~Fields]

Originally Posted by edabbs44

If you think that this was clear, concise and straight-forward then I guess we are on a different level of understanding. Especially when you ask me to define something that is intangible.

It is quite obvious that I'm not going to sit here and chart out my expected revenues, attendance levels and liquidity based upon the non-signings of those guys. And I am definitely not going to try and measure something that can't be measured.

But I would have to say that, knowing what we know now, these signings didn't work out as expected by some. And they have had a negative impact on the franchise as a whole.

You did a good job, you provided, supported, and confirmed the answer's right here, that I was looking for.

[Mario-Rijo]

Originally Posted by edabbs44

If you think that this was clear, concise and straight-forward then I guess we are on a different level of understanding. Especially when you ask me to define something that is intangible.

It is quite obvious that I'm not going to sit here and chart out my expected revenues, attendance levels and liquidity based upon the non-signings of those guys. And I am definitely not going to try and measure something that can't be measured.

But I would have to say that, knowing what we know now, these signings didn't work out as expected by some. And they have had a negative impact on the franchise as a whole.

Really, hmm don't know what people expected but i'd say sans Harangs roller coaster ride courtesy of Baker it's turned out as well as could be expected for Arroyo, BP and Cordero. And despite his W-L record Harang hasn't been a complete bust. I just don't know that anyone could have expected better as a whole from these guys and if so they were kidding themselves from the beginning.

[edabbs44]

Originally Posted by Mario-Rijo

Really, hmm don't know what people expected but i'd say sans Harangs roller coaster ride courtesy of Baker it's turned out as well as could be expected for Arroyo, BP and Cordero. And despite his W-L record Harang hasn't been a complete bust. I just don't know that anyone could have expected better as a whole from these guys and if so they were kidding themselves from the beginning.

Blaming Harang's roller coaster ride on Baker is a convenient excuse. Just like it was Baker's fault that Arroyo was going down the tubes until he turned into Pedro circa 2000 last July. Then we heard nothing about Baker leaving him in games too long. I am sure it will come up again if Arroyo gets pummelled in the first half of this year as well.

Listen, some signings work out and some don't. That's part of the game. But if a new owner comes in and gives a GM what, roughly $130MM to spend over the course of 2 years, you would expect some results on the field from the team as a whole. The GM went out and made a splash getting his hand picked closer, extended two starting pitchers and gave another lucrative extension to his 2B. And we saw $60ish million of that spending spree leave the ballpark over the last two years and have nothing to show for it.

We can continue to focus on WK's affect on this team on a micro-level and dress it up and make it look good. But there is more to being a GM than picking up the garbage from other teams. That was the one thing that Wayne had success in doing and you don't find many failed top 5 prospects on the curb all that often, let alone those who work out. I'd rather have the guy who performs better in the more frequently occurring baseball situations like FA signings, contract extensions and overall management of a roster. Now I'm not saying that Walt has shown this in his tenure so far (or that he has been given any roster flexibility to have a chance to do so) but I think he has shown this ability in St Louis.

[OnBaseMachine]

Oh wow, so now the Brandon Phillips extension was a mistake.

Arroyo/Cordero/Harang/Phillips all make a lot of money but they have produced. It's not like the Reds threw a bunch of money at some scrubs. Maybe fans should focus on the bad players instead of complaining because the productive players make too much money.

[edabbs44]

Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine

Oh wow, so now the Brandon Phillips extension was a mistake.

Arroyo/Cordero/Harang/Phillips all make a lot of money but they have produced. It's not like the Reds threw a bunch of money at some scrubs. Maybe fans should focus on the bad players instead of complaining because the productive players make too much money.

You are truly looking at the whole thing wrong. Again, don't focus on the micro.

If you were given $500k to build a house and it collapsed one year after building it, yet the kitchen and one bathroom were still spectacular since you spent $400k on it, would you sit there and talk about how nice the kitchen was? Or would you find a new place to live?

Phillips has been a great acquisition. The Arroyo trade worked out marvelously. Cordero has performed well as a Red. Harang's extension has not worked out so far since last year was the first year and his performance was lacking. These are indisputable statements.

But when I sit here and say that the Arroyo extension didn't make sense, I am talking about it from the team's perspective. Same with Cordero. Cordero could throw 70 perfect innings this year and be 55 for 55 in saves and it won't make a difference to me unless he is part of a winning ballclub. Investing all that money should contribute to putting a winner on the field. Give me a winning team over a winning acquisition anyday.

[bucksfan2]

Originally Posted by edabbs44

We can continue to focus on WK's affect on this team on a micro-level and dress it up and make it look good. But there is more to being a GM than picking up the garbage from other teams. That was the one thing that Wayne had success in doing and you don't find many failed top 5 prospects on the curb all that often, let alone those who work out. I'd rather have the guy who performs better in the more frequently occurring baseball situations like FA signings, contract extensions and overall management of a roster. Now I'm not saying that Walt has shown this in his tenure so far (or that he has been given any roster flexibility to have a chance to do so) but I think he has shown this ability in St Louis.

Bingo. WK would look great in any organization on the player development side of things. When he is forced to oversee the overall big picture I think WK has trouble with that.

OBM as for Phillips I go back and forth on him all the time. He is a top 3 defensive SS in the game but his offense is a roller coaster. If Frazier can come up and play average 2b while putting similar numbers to his minor league numbers he could be as or more valuable than Phillips. Now that may be a stretch, but so are the respective contracts. That is my biggest issue with Phillips. Good player with an inconsistent bat making quite a bit of cash.

[Mario-Rijo]

Originally Posted by edabbs44

Blaming Harang's roller coaster ride on Baker is a convenient excuse. Just like it was Baker's fault that Arroyo was going down the tubes until he turned into Pedro circa 2000 last July. Then we heard nothing about Baker leaving him in games too long. I am sure it will come up again if Arroyo gets pummelled in the first half of this year as well.

Listen, some signings work out and some don't. That's part of the game. But if a new owner comes in and gives a GM what, roughly $130MM to spend over the course of 2 years, you would expect some results on the field from the team as a whole. The GM went out and made a splash getting his hand picked closer, extended two starting pitchers and gave another lucrative extension to his 2B. And we saw $60ish million of that spending spree leave the ballpark over the last two years and have nothing to show for it.

We can continue to focus on WK's affect on this team on a micro-level and dress it up and make it look good. But there is more to being a GM than picking up the garbage from other teams. That was the one thing that Wayne had success in doing and you don't find many failed top 5 prospects on the curb all that often, let alone those who work out. I'd rather have the guy who performs better in the more frequently occurring baseball situations like FA signings, contract extensions and overall management of a roster. Now I'm not saying that Walt has shown this in his tenure so far (or that he has been given any roster flexibility to have a chance to do so) but I think he has shown this ability in St Louis.

#1 Where you are getting those totals I don't know, there were contracts on the books that had nothing to do with Wayne. You want to debate the dollars he gave to certain players fine but much of Wayne's payroll was already spent both years so 130 million is an exaggeration.

2nd and to use your analogy if I were given the funds to build said house that's one thing. But if I were hired to do a massive restoration and given a contracted amount of time to do it then I would presume to have the time alotted to have a finished product especially considering that people were going be occupying it as I restored. Therefore If I have to pay a little extra in the short term to make it livable then that's what I have to do it doesn't mean that same toilet is gonna be there when I'm done. Give me the time alotted to begin with before you go jumping to conclusions that I don't know what I'm doing based on how it looks midway thru the process. If at the end the budget hasn't worked out or I haven't done a fine job restoring it then we have a problem. But bringing in a new guy who might get rid of that temporary toilet to satisfy your budget concerns does nothing for the house if he doesn't know the first thing about plumbing anyway. What you have just done is cause a major delay in the process, probably will have cost yourself more dollars in the long run and still not get as quality a job as you would have with the 1st guy.

[BRM]

Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine

Arroyo/Cordero/Harang/Phillips all make a lot of money but they have produced. It's not like the Reds threw a bunch of money at some scrubs. Maybe fans should focus on the bad players instead of complaining because the productive players make too much money.

That's how it's been around here for years, unfortunately. Salary ball fever, catch it!

[edabbs44]

Rough numbers

Cordero 46
Harang plus Arroyo 50
Gonzo 14
Phillips unsure off the top of my head but maybe 20ish

those are obviously millions that were committed by one guy. I'm not even adding the couple of million here or there on the other complete fiascos.

He got a ton of money to spend. We've seen about 60MM of that money roll off already with zero achieved. The bulk of the outstanding owed is universally agreed throughout baseball as being unwanted. Awesome.

[edabbs44]

Originally Posted by BRM

That's how it's been around here for years, unfortunately. Salary ball fever, catch it!

Shoot me for rather winning the war instead of the battle.

[Mario-Rijo]

Originally Posted by edabbs44

Shoot me for rather winning the war instead of the battle.

An often used analogy, unfortunately you have to win most battles to win the war.

[edabbs44]

Originally Posted by Mario-Rijo

An often used analogy, unfortunately you have to win most battles to win the war.

Very true. Except the entire validation of Wayne's "success" as a GM For some involves the acquisitions of Arroyo, Hamilton and Phillips as the stars. It doesn't matter that the team's performance sank as payroll and future capital committments rose. It doesn't matter that his three biggest financial moves are now viewed as immoveable.

And now the current GM is left with what is left. Walt hasn't had the financial resources that others have had access to. Walt or Wayne, I cannot see this team being much better off than it is. Wayne constructed almost this exact team for this year. He had these guys in place. The key players on this team had to have been in his plans. The only difference is at third.

[edabbs44]

Continued - and the problem with this team is that Harang and Arroyo and Cordero are a crapshoot after 2010, if not much sooner.

If this team wins anything this year without a couple of significant additions, Wayne will deserve a good amt of credit. Most of the key guys have his fingerprints all over them.

[Spring~Fields]

Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine

Oh wow, so now the Brandon Phillips extension was a mistake.

Arroyo/Cordero/Harang/Phillips all make a lot of money but they have produced. It's not like the Reds threw a bunch of money at some scrubs. Maybe fans should focus on the bad players instead of complaining because the productive players make too much money.