Reds sign Orlando Cabrera to one-year, $3M deal; option for second year

[Chip R]

Originally Posted by TheNext44

When I said that he will be doing a lot of late inning replacement, I meant that, along with some starts, although they might not all be at SS. Jocketty said a few time that he would get "lots of playing time."

Maybe they see him as expendable, but if you're going on what Jocketty said, Janish will be more than just a back up. He seemed to say that they will still be trying to groom him as an eventual starter.

Of course he's going to say that. He's not going to come out and tell everyone that Janish is there in case Cabrera doesn't hit and in the field makes us wish for the halcyon days of Felipe Lopez. He's also insurance in case Cabrera gets hurt but LOU is 90 minutes away if you need someone like that. Janish's role is going to be basically the same as Juan Castro's was when he was here. We know Janish can do the job defensively but we also know he can't hit water if he fell out of a boat. So how is Janish going to develop as a hitter if he doesn't get to hit on a regular basis?

I understand why they don't want to keep Janish in AAA. They have to try to develop Cozart and/or Valaika. If only they could loan Janish out somewhere he could get ABs and not hurt the development of the other two guys then I would believe they are actually trying to groom him as an eventual starter.

[Raisor]

Originally Posted by Sea Ray

Admittedly Miles has hit his ceiling and (hopefully) Rosales has not but Miles is not the inept hitter he showed last year due to injury. In the three years prior he hit .289 in semi regular play and that's not bad for a utility INF which is how he earned the multiyear contract

career OPS+ of 73.

He's Luis Soto if you squint hard enough.

[Bumstead]

Janish is 27 years old and hasn't hit at all since A ball...why does anyone think he is going to "develop" further? C'mon, at best he is a utility infielder. I don't know why people want to hold onto guys like Janish and Rosales. We finally sign someone that actually be a MLB SS and finally dump Taveras and people still aren't happy...I'm ecstatic. Managements' expectations are rising and our expectations should rise as well. The future's almost so bright that I have to wear shades...

Bum

[Mario-Rijo]

Originally Posted by Red Heeler

Rosales' minor league career OPS = 0.855. Miles' minor league OPS = 0.734. Rosales will be the same age this year as Miles was in his first full year in the majors.

I'm with ya RH. It baffles me how people can come to a quick and decisive conclusion on a guy when the guy has obvious deficiencies skill-wise. Skills can be improved, talent cannot. So Just because Rosales had similiar results as Janish in limited exposure to the major leagues now he is in the same boat, ludicrous. Now that's not to suggest Rosales ever will, but he certainly can make improvements and be a viable big league player. With improvements like experience, knowledge of the pitchers and small tweaks in his preparation Janish might get to the minimum acceptable level of a SS say .650 OPS. Rosales can clearly be a solid UT type with a .700-.750 OPS (with a possible peak of .800 for a year or 2, say a poor mans Derosa) and as Oakland also suggested (along with Rick Sweet) he can play some SS. Rosy just needs better pitch selection (and maybe a bit better bat control) and he'll start closing in on his ceiling.

[Sea Ray]

Originally Posted by Raisor

career OPS+ of 73.

He's Luis Soto if you squint hard enough.

Yeah, but we're not comparing him to Luis Soto. If you'd care to post Rosales OPS+ we'd all see that Miles compares quite favorably.

[Puffy]

Originally Posted by Roy Tucker

We are talking about the Adam Rosales that played on the Reds last year, right?

I'd say you have to dial up the rose-factor waaaay high in your glasses to get all excited about him. He is marginally better than Janish with the stick and nowhere close to him with the glove. At least IMO.

Yeah, that is what I saw. Watching him trying to hit ML pitching was painful. He is a classic AAAA guy, and I am surprised Beane thinks different.

[IslandRed]

I kind of agree with Bumstead -- they've said all the right positive things about Janish, but he's 27 and expecting him to be anything above a replacement-level bat going forward is really, really optimistic. I think he's transitioning into "he is what he is, make the best use of it" territory. That means defensive fill-in. But what if Cabrera looks good afield in the spring and doesn't project to need a late-innings caddy? With Miles able to handle short in a pinch and Sutton still around, suddenly I can see a scenario where Janish doesn't make the team.

[Mario-Rijo]

Originally Posted by IslandRed

I kind of agree with Bumstead -- they've said all the right positive things about Janish, but he's 27 and expecting him to be anything above a replacement-level bat going forward is really, really optimistic. I think he's transitioning into "he is what he is, make the best use of it" territory. That means defensive fill-in. But what if Cabrera looks good afield in the spring and doesn't project to need a late-innings caddy? With Miles able to handle short in a pinch and Sutton still around, suddenly I can see a scenario where Janish doesn't make the team.

Honestly the best possible outcome is that Paul finds his way back to Louisville but I doubt that happens.

[edabbs44]

Originally Posted by Mario-Rijo

Honestly the best possible outcome is that Paul finds his way back to Louisville but I doubt that happens.

I would want to see him get some ABs vs LHPs and be a late inning defensive replacement/double switch kind of guy.

[Caveat Emperor]

Originally Posted by Puffy

Yeah, that is what I saw. Watching him trying to hit ML pitching was painful. He is a classic AAAA guy, and I am surprised Beane thinks different.

And, really, the Reds have had an endless supply of guys like Rosales. It's not like the world ended when Brandon Larson, Chris Denorfia and Stephen Smitherman left the roster -- there will be a "new" Rosales at some point.

Just spitballing, but my guess is Chris Heisey finds his way into that fine company of men at some point.

[Ron Madden]

Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor

And, really, the Reds have had an endless supply of guys like Rosales. It's not like the world ended when Brandon Larson, Chris Denorfia and Stephen Smitherman left the roster -- there will be a "new" Rosales at some point.

Just spitballing, but my guess is Chris Heisey finds his way into that fine company of men at some point.

I'm afraid you just might be right, I hope not, but I do share your concern.

[REDREAD]

Originally Posted by Chip R

Taking them at their word, that's a contradiction. If he's going to be used as a late inning defensive replacement, he isn't going to get a lot of at bats so how is he going to develop? Seems to me he would need all the ABs he can get. But I'm sure they really see Janish as expendable and they live with Cabrera for a year - maybe 2 - and pray that Cozart or Valaika or somebody can step up and claim that regular SS position.

Jocketty is kind of backed into a corner though.

What else is he going to say? "To be honest, Janish only got playing time because there was no SS depth in the organization. I doubt his bat ever develops, but he still has value as a cheap inf backup, kind of like the young Juan Castro?"

Every time a vet is brought in and a youngster is pushed to the bench, a GM will make a comment about how they haven't given up on the kid and the kid will still get plenty of playing time.

[REDREAD]

Originally Posted by Bumstead

Janish is 27 years old and hasn't hit at all since A ball...why does anyone think he is going to "develop" further? C'mon, at best he is a utility infielder. I don't know why people want to hold onto guys like Janish and Rosales. We finally sign someone that actually be a MLB SS and finally dump Taveras and people still aren't happy...I'm ecstatic. Managements' expectations are rising and our expectations should rise as well. The future's almost so bright that I have to wear shades...

Bum

I think that Reds fans have been trained to look so favorably at prospects as the big hope for turning the team around. When a prospect gets traded or pushed to the bench, even a mediocre one.. it really shakes some people.
There's this undercurrent that the prospect would've succeeded if only given more patience. Look at all the love and patience EdE recieved throughout his career, relative to his performance. If EdE was a veteran FA that the club signed, he would've been as hated almost as much as Wily and Patterson.
But since EdE spent time in the farm system, and had a lot of potential, we were willing to overlook the fact that he was never going to learn how to field 3b. I was as guilty as anyone. I guess it's part of the psychocology of fandom.. To some, losing Zach Stewart, Rosales, etc is difficult to swallow, because they symbolized hope.

I'm not trying to be melodramic here. I don't think anyone is saying they dislike the OCab signing. But, IMO, we are fooling ourselves by reading all this stat analysis that says Janish might be equal to OCab. I think it's more likely that OCab gets a rebound on defense in 2010 than Janish suddenly learns how to hit.

[TRF]

I'm not trying to be melodramic here. I don't think anyone is saying they dislike the OCab signing. But, IMO, we are fooling ourselves by reading all this stat analysis that says Janish might be equal to OCab. I think it's more likely that OCab gets a rebound on defense in 2010 than Janish suddenly learns how to hit.

I'm saying it, not because I love all things Janish. I just think signing a 35 year old SS coming off his worst season defensively is a bad idea. I think Cozart could be ready by June, and I think if the OF's offense is clicking, you can hide Janish' bat in the 8 hole and his defense will take care of the rest.

[bucksfan2]

Originally Posted by TRF

I'm saying it, not because I love all things Janish. I just think signing a 35 year old SS coming off his worst season defensively is a bad idea. I think Cozart could be ready by June, and I think if the OF's offense is clicking, you can hide Janish' bat in the 8 hole and his defense will take care of the rest.

But what happens if he isn't ready? What happens if the OF offense doesn't click? You can't go into a season with Janish as your only option at SS.