Alonso trying 3B, OF. Jocketty: "I don't see us moving Joey"

[TRF]

Originally Posted by Bumstead

points up to my last post...carry on...

cute smiley.

My point is Pete Rose didn't move to LF for an unproven rookie at 2B
He didn't move to RF for an unproven rookie in LF.
In '72 he did move for the relatively untested Geronimo, but he moved from RF to LF, a position he played for a few years.
He didn't move to 3B for an unproven rookie in LF.

[OUReds]

Originally Posted by dougdirt

Exactly. There is no doubt that the combo of Votto in LF and Alonso at 1B is the better of the two options solely involving those two players.

There is plenty of doubt in my mind. We have no idea if Votto can play a competent LF. We have no idea how well Alonso can play LF. Heck we have no idea how well Alonso would play 1st in the majors.

The only thing we do know defensively is that Votto is a reasonable 1st baseman. Changing that on the basis of a huge chain of assumptions is very much a risk.

It's also a decision that doesn't have to even be made yet.

[Bumstead]

Originally Posted by icehole3

I agree, you have to at least try Alonso in LF, so what if it fails, it fails at least you tried, if he's Adam Dunn out there then trade him.

So, Alonso either plays LF or the Reds have to trade him? Why?

[Sea Ray]

From what I've read, Walt and Co are not going to move Votto. I look forward to more years of discussions on RZ of this thing that'll never happen just like we've all been treated to vis-a-vie Brandon Phillips and his move to SS.

[dougdirt]

Originally Posted by OUReds

There is plenty of doubt in my mind. We have no idea if Votto can play a competent LF. We have no idea how well Alonso can play LF. Heck we have no idea how well Alonso would play 1st in the majors.

The only thing we do know defensively is that Votto is a reasonable 1st baseman. Changing that on the basis of a huge chain of assumptions is very much a risk.

It's also a decision that doesn't have to even be made yet.

Here is what we know.... Joey Votto has over a third of a season's experience in playing left field. Joey Votto is faster than Yonder Alonso is. Joey Votto has a better arm than Yonder Alonso does. All of those suggests that Joey Votto would make a much better left fielder than Yonder Alonso will. We also know what Yonder Alonso is an average first baseman in the minors and that is likely to transfer forward to the majors.

[edabbs44]

Originally Posted by Bumstead

I still don't see the fun involved in your scenario...It seems counterproductive to cheering for your team to get better and actually win some games. JMHO of course.

It would be fun to see the reaction. Like if everyone cheers the move of Votto to LF and then he bails the first chance he gets. Or if Votto moves and both his and Alonso's stats aren't up to par. I am sure the FO would then be lambasted for the move.

[edabbs44]

Originally Posted by dougdirt

Here is what we know.... Joey Votto has over a third of a season's experience in playing left field. Joey Votto is faster than Yonder Alonso is. Joey Votto has a better arm than Yonder Alonso does. All of those suggests that Joey Votto would make a much better left fielder than Yonder Alonso will. We also know what Yonder Alonso is an average first baseman in the minors and that is likely to transfer forward to the majors.

I'm not comapring the two as players by any stretch, but would you move Pujols back to LF (assuming Holliday wasn't there and there was a need) for Alonso?

[Kc61]

Originally Posted by Sea Ray

From what I've read, Walt and Co are not going to move Votto. I look forward to more years of discussions on RZ of this thing that'll never happen just like we've all been treated to vis-a-vie Brandon Phillips and his move to SS.

I know this will result in a barrage of attacks, but the truth is that some guys learn a position, improve, and it becomes difficult to ask them to move. Votto has improved at first, he's now in his prime. Same with Phillips at second. It becomes difficult to ask them to throw away that accomplishment and start over at a new position.

It's much easier to take a minor leaguer and tell him to try something new. He's still at the learning stage.

Alonso seems willing. Hopefully he's also able and can be a decent left fielder. Then let his bat do the main work.

[Bumstead]

Originally Posted by edabbs44

It would be fun to see the reaction. Like if everyone cheers the move of Votto to LF and then he bails the first chance he gets. Or if Votto moves and both his and Alonso's stats aren't up to par. I am sure the FO would then be lambasted for the move.

And this would be fun? I'm afraid it wouldn't be fun for actual Reds fans. IMHO of course.

Bum

[OUReds]

Originally Posted by dougdirt

Here is what we know.... Joey Votto has over a third of a season's experience in playing left field. Joey Votto is faster than Yonder Alonso is. Joey Votto has a better arm than Yonder Alonso does. All of those suggests that Joey Votto would make a much better left fielder than Yonder Alonso will. We also know what Yonder Alonso is an average first baseman in the minors and that is likely to transfer forward to the majors.

And after that whole 1/3rd of a season in the minors he was switched right back to 1st base. All we really know is that he probably wouldn't spike himself out there. Just because he might be better doesn't mean he would be acceptable.

How well Alonso will play 1st base in the majors at this point is nothing more then educated guesswork.

[Bumstead]

Originally Posted by OUReds

And after that whole 1/3rd of a season in the minors he was switched right back to 1st base. All we really know is that he probably wouldn't spike himself out there. Just because he might be better doesn't mean he would be acceptable.

How well Alonso will play 1st base in the majors at this point is nothing more then educated guesswork.

So, Alonso plays average 1B defense in the minors and that might not translate to MLB? Can you explain the differences between playing 1B in the minors vs playing 1B in MLB? To me, I think his 1B defense would translate directly from the minors to MLB. I would even think that he might improve in MLB as the seasons go by due to more experience at the position.

Bum

[TRF]

The problem with doug's scenario, and he admits this, is it exists in a vacuum, ignoring Frazier, Francisco and Heisey. For 2010, Votto will get 550+ AB's barring injury and every inning he plays in the field will be at 1B.

1B isn't a competition, it's a filled position.

[edabbs44]

Originally Posted by Bumstead

And this would be fun? I'm afraid it wouldn't be fun for actual Reds fans. IMHO of course.

Bum

Yeah, it would be fun to see the reaction. Because sometimes people treat a roster like a video game and not like a game played by humans. Like that Votto's .900+ OPS will translate exactly to LF if he were to move. And that Alonso, due to his pedigree, is a lock to be a masher at 1B. And that it won't make a difference to Votto if he moves for a guy who doesn't pan out, or that he establishes himself as the center of this team and now is being asked to move across the field for someone who hasn't played an inning above AA and only 29 games over A ball.

The Yankees didn't ask Jeter to move for the best player in baseball, yet we want the Reds to move Votto to make room for a guy who hasn't really proven himself in the pros as of yet.

I could see Cincy sitting down with Votto and talking it through if Alonso was absolutely mashing in AAA and there were no other options, but at this stage Joey shouldn't have to worry about this at all.

[TRF]

The Yankees didn't ask Jeter to move for the best player in baseball, yet we want the Reds to move Votto to make room for a guy who hasn't really proven himself in the pros as of yet.

quoted for absolute truth.

[dougdirt]

Originally Posted by TRF

The problem with doug's scenario, and he admits this, is it exists in a vacuum, ignoring Frazier, Francisco and Heisey. For 2010, Votto will get 550+ AB's barring injury and every inning he plays in the field will be at 1B.

1B isn't a competition, it's a filled position.

While I am sure the Reds aren't on the same page as me, Francisco shouldn't enter the conversation at any position until he gets his bat under control. Frazier has versatility that lets him play all over, so even then it wouldn't block him. Heisey likely would be blocked though.