What did Walt Jocketty do differently?

[wolfboy]

Originally Posted by RedsManRick

I do wonder how much credit we're giving Walt for the situation he inherited. In reality, Bowden left the system pretty much barren and the major league team with an offense but no pitching and poor defense.

We've seen three GMs since Bowden - a total of four over the last eight years. The organization is in great shape with so much turnover and the state it was in when Bowden was fired.

[Degenerate39]

If the Reds didn't have Rolen and still had Edwin do you think Frazier would now be the starting 3rd baseman?

[Spring~Fields]

Originally Posted by RedsManRick

That doesn't take away from what he done, but when you look at the biggest improvements we've had, aside from Chapman, it's been the maturation of players who were already here when Jocketty took over.

[Falls City Beer]

I still think we're getting way ahead of ourselves: this team hasn't won a thing yet.

[Spring~Fields]

Originally Posted by Falls City Beer

I still think we're getting way ahead of ourselves: this team hasn't won a thing yet.

Good point, true also.

Plus spring training stats are meaningless, additionally projections are commonly in error and the Reds have not displaced St. Louis, Chicago, or Milwuakee yet.

[westofyou]

Originally Posted by Falls City Beer

I still think we're getting way ahead of ourselves: this team hasn't won a thing yet.

Yep, the praise being handed out is akin to the back slaps the other caveman gave the first caveman to kill something that might be good enough to eat, but only to be stymied by the fact no one had figured out how to start a fire yet.

[mth123]

Originally Posted by westofyou

What he's done the best is gather and collect the jewels from his predecessors and hide under his desk when Cast was looking to stop the losing.

[edabbs44]

Originally Posted by RedsManRick

I do wonder how much credit we're giving Walt for the situation he inherited. In reality, Bowden left the system pretty much barren and the major league team with an offense but no pitching and poor defense.

I don't know if O'Brien and/or Krivsky would have us where we are today had then been in place for longer, but I do know that Walt had much more to work with than either of them. That doesn't take away from what he done, but when you look at the biggest improvements we've had, aside from Chapman, it's been the maturation of players who were already here when Jocketty took over.

Walt has done what should've been done for a while. Let the kids mature, don't spend ridiculous money on a dream and let the payroll open up for guys who will help when the kids are getting there. The spending of money in 2007-2009 was a huge negative for me, if you couldn't tell. There wasn't any reason why some of those contracts had to happen and the team would be better positioned for the future if some of them didn't.

Walt had a lot of the future situated nicely when he took over and he will most likely end up benefitting because of that. But he is also positioning the roster to coincide with the maturation of the future, which is smart GMing.

[RedsManRick]

Originally Posted by wolfboy

We've seen three GMs since Bowden - a total of four over the last eight years. The organization is in great shape with so much turnover and the state it was in when Bowden was fired.

I agree. And the current state of the franchise is the result of the combined efforts of the GM's we've had since Bowden. Comparing the state of the org under Jocketty to where it was under O'Brien or Krvisky largely ignores the impact of talent accumulated by predecessors.

To use the phrase liberally, there's a bit of a "standing on the shoulders of geniuses" going on here. That's not deny Jocketty has done well since he's gotten here. He's not made any large, irresponsible investments and has overseen the maturation of Votto, Bruce, Bailey, Dickerson, Hanigan, etc. But we should give credit where's it due to those people who brought much of this great young talent in to the organization.

I'm tentatively of the opinion that he's dumb like a fox when it comes to the Taveras signing, for example. He knows the only way to build a winner here is to build it from the ground up with a few key vets sprinkled in. But he needed to appease Mr. Losing-Stops-Now in the process.

[edabbs44]

Originally Posted by Falls City Beer

I still think we're getting way ahead of ourselves: this team hasn't won a thing yet.

The future of the team is improving. I am seeing a team that is positioned well for the next 5 years. That enough is cause for me to be happy.

[edabbs44]

Originally Posted by dougdirt

Others were pressured into moves by an impatient owner who didn't trust them to do their job. Walt has not seemed to have had that pressure and there have been no word leaking out about it either.

He took the job with those expectations laid out for him. I doubt that there was any bait and switch going on.

And maybe it is true about Walt, but also maybe Walt stood up and told him that the team couldn't continue down the path it was going. Maybe Wayne wanted a GM job so bad he just accepted one that was offered no matter what the situation.

If you have inside knowledge about how this all went down, I'd love to hear it. But I'm not going to assume that Wayne was strong-armed into some of those contracts and decisions he made. What I saw was a rookie GM who had some hits but was overmatched in the world of GMing.

[HokieRed]

I think a plausible narrative would suggest that all four of the administrations after Jim Bowden's release have made seeming progress toward the goal of our becoming competitive--a status we have yet to achieve, as FCB rightly reminds us.

[Spring~Fields]

Originally Posted by RedsManRick

I agree. And the current state of the franchise is the result of the combined efforts of the GM's we've had since Bowden. Comparing the state of the org under Jocketty to where it was under O'Brien or Krvisky largely ignores the impact of talent accumulated by predecessors.
To use the phrase liberally, there's a bit of a "standing on the shoulders of geniuses" going on here. That's not deny Jocketty has done well since he's gotten here. He's not made any large, irresponsible investments and has overseen the maturation of Votto, Bruce, Bailey, Dickerson, Hanigan, etc. But we should give credit where's it due to those people who brought much of this great young talent in to the organization.

[Spring~Fields]

Originally Posted by edabbs44

Walt had a lot of the future situated nicely when he took over and he will most likely end up benefitting because of that. But he is also positioning the roster to coincide with the maturation of the future, which is smart GMing.

That reads like you are being more fair now. I can live with that.

[M2]

General thoughts:

1. The notion that it's all going to come together for the Reds in 2010 strikes me as highly aspirational. I'm not saying it won't happen, just that there's a lot of moving pieces involved in it.

2. Jocketty has had the benefit of following Krivsky. That doesn't mean Krivsky handed him a finished or nearly finished product, just that he has assets to work with. For instance, as much as some have been inclined to grouse about the money spent on Arroyo, Harang and Cordero, the two starters vacuum up an immense number of innings. Cordero has allowed Baker to put together an orderly bullpen and Jocketty to concentrate on fixing other problems.

3. To his credit, Jocketty has strung together a series of good moves. Getting Rolen undeniably helped the major league product. Chapman, though he'll surely have a learning curve, is a top-end arm. Cabrera was a nice opportunistic buy. Balentien could be a factor. He tried to add some reserve player depth to the roster too (though that remains a bit up in the air). Jocketty's on a bit of run since midway through last season. If he keeps stringing moves together, good things will happen. The challenge he faces is that the club constantly faces a veteran talent bleed, which makes it hard to get ahead (and harder to stay ahead if it ever gets ahead).