What did Walt Jocketty do differently?

[edabbs44]

Originally Posted by TRF

He signed WT to a two year deal. I'm still waiting on a single member of the Reds organization to defend that signing.

Getting Chapman, while a risk, was brilliant, can't deny it. The trade for Rolen... Well i still think it was a bad trade. Especially if Frazier tears up AAA to start this year. And since EE is likely on the DL for TOR, Frazier COULD have started for the Reds out of ST. IMO, a missed opportunity.

But Walt gets no credit for the rotation, 1B, 2B, RF, CF, and gets only 50% for C.

So, he hasn't done all that much.

Here's the point you are missing...Walt isn't gunning for this season. He didn't give $50MM to 2 pitchers for 2009-2010. He didn't give $46MM to a closer for 2008-2011. He didn't extend Phillips. He is looking to build for the long haul, not for "now".

This team should be competitive this season and that is good for this franchise since it has been a while since we have been able to say that. But the fact that Walt gets no credit for the 2010 rotation doesn't really mean anything to me. I am much happier that he has added Leake and Chapman than the fact that we have Arroyo and Harang to watch this season. I am much more excited for 2012 than 2010.

We all realize that the Arroyo trade was a positive one and that Cordero made the bullpen better. But they aren't why the future of this team looks so good.

[M2]

Originally Posted by HokieRed

As usual, the narrative insufficiently credits the guy who had--by far--the worst set of circumstances to work with and began the move in the right direction--OB.

O'Brien was the worst GM ever to walk the earth. Couldn't spot major league talent to save himself and had every kid on the farm moving in the wrong direction.

[Roy Tucker]

Originally Posted by M2

O'Brien was the worst GM ever to walk the earth. Couldn't spot major league talent to save himself and had every kid on the farm moving in the wrong direction.

Pitch to contact, i.e. our guys can't throw a fastball through a wet poopy piece of toilet paper.

[westofyou]

Originally Posted by M2

O'Brien was the worst GM ever to walk the earth. Couldn't spot major league talent to save himself and had every kid on the farm moving in the wrong direction.

Yep, he was scout in a GM's office, a legacy child who should never have been given the keys to the summer house.

[Spring~Fields]

Originally Posted by edabbs44

Here's the point you are missing...Walt isn't gunning for this season. He didn't give $50MM to 2 pitchers for 2009-2010. He didn't give $46MM to a closer for 2008-2011. He didn't extend Phillips. He is looking to build for the long haul, not for "now".

This team should be competitive this season and that is good for this franchise since it has been a while since we have been able to say that.

I kind of wish that the Reds had not signed Harang, Arroyo, or Cordero either. I assume that you are referencing those pitchers.

I don’t know what ownership was thinking, knowing their budgeting plans and financial position for that season and the seasons to come, along with the restrictions and limitations that the ownership group, and the powers that be, knew, knew in advance that they were going to be placing upon their staff.

I can’t recall, I apologize, but I can’t recall having read your suggestion as to how they could have been replaced, those pitchers, with equal to or better than and at what cost and where that would have positioned the Reds organization throughout those past seasons and to date?

Though, I think it would have been interesting to see how the Reds organization would have replaced their innings and results, tangible and intangible on the bullpen and game outcomes. Plus it would have been and be real interesting to have watched Mr. Jocketty and Mr. Baker work 2008, 2009 and this year, 2010 without them, and what the replacements and replacement cost would have been if there even were or was replacements of their previous levels at the time of their signings, if, if they were available to be obtained.

Well, he has been able to pick up Rolen, Hernandez, Cabrera, Gomes, Nix, Miles, Burke, Masset, Rhodes and Kip Wells fairly cheap, we’ll see how they do with those nice acquisitions. Hopefully, injuries won't be a concern or factor with Rolen or Hernandez.

Surely it would have given Mr. Jocketty more payroll flexibility since ownership could not and seemingly can’t support the team beyond a Cincinnati beer income vs the St. Louis champagne income and the Chicago conglomerate incomes, throughout the decade of 2000.

It would have allowed Mr. Jocketty to have signed more aging and declining vets to two and three year contracts, and to have possibly traded off some of the pitching and hitting prospects for some experienced major league pitching. I am not real sure on the quality of those pitchers though, are you? I guess that doesn't matter or wasn't or isn't a factor?

Or that if there were any top quality starters and closers available that for a high enough price and long enough contract, that they would have been amenable to come pitch at the GABP for a team that hasn’t had a winning season in a decade. Would they be today, or would they have been during the past? Are they here?

That might be problematic. I guess it would be fair to say that, he and the small market, cash strapped Reds organization would have to make due with what the market and other teams would provide him with for what he was offering in return, and what the ownership group would budget him to spend or sign off on, since they ultimately control the power of the purse, and are making the final decisions.

Castellini does have to give an account of the investors money, investors like, Lindner, Reich and Strike, but those individuals might support Castellini and his plans, as they did throughout the "time" and entire growth and development of the Reds during the 2000 decade. There's that word "time" again, that went by, that we so often reference, by saying, "it takes time" or "it will take time".

Sometimes I think that those particular powerful investors have a salary cap of their own in place, when it comes to their money. They certainly did, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005 and still have a major influence and impact on what is done with their "time" and "money", now.

Perhaps he can trade off Harang, Arroyo, and Cordero at the half to yet free up some payroll and or to get some higher level experienced, major league average performers, in return or to free up money. Mr. Jocketty and Mr. Baker probably will want to replace them with some experienced major league starters and perhaps closer too. Any good ones available, what will that cost in dollars, prospect trades or combinations? What will the return and outcome be?

Or then go with his developing young pitching in the starting roles. Cueto, Bailey, Volquez, Chapman, Wood or Leake will be very interesting to watch as they grow and develop. Outcome, unknown, but I think we have confidence in them based on media reports and the history of Cueto and Bailey, I don’t think any of us are sure about Volquez yet.

Surely they can edge out the cheese magnates of Milwaukee and the oil barrens of Houston this year, 2010.

We are real confident in what we have seen from Cueto and Bailey to date aren’t we? I think we have to wait and see about the recovery of Volquez though don’t we?

The Reds are moving in the right direction, I should write appear, appear to be moving in the right direction, compared to the Lindner-Bowden-O’Brien days leading up to the teams sale, when they fell 15-20 in millions behind in payroll and competing with their primary competition in the Central and have remained with that deficit or disparity throughout the decade of 2000. Enabling those other teams to do some growing, developing and achieving of their own, with their time and money.

The question as always remains, will they improve enough to catch-up with and overcome, St. Louis, Chicago, Milwaukee, and Houston vs just the appearance of overcoming past bad Reds teams? No matter how much the appearance of improvement, those are the teams, organizations, and financial management that they have to overcome.

I am all happy about the current Reds appearing to be better than past bad Reds teams. I sure hope that the primary competition (St. Louis, Chicago, Milwaukee, and Houston) remains stagnate or regresses to lower levels for the next “few years” to allow the Reds to catch-up and to overcome them, because they will have a lot to say about the outcomes as they have throughout the decade. What the Reds have done, and what the Reds will do, will have to be better than St. Louis, Chicago, Milwaukee and Houston, to be difference maker's.

It’s pretty much all speculation isn’t it? One thing for certain, Reds ownerhip and the primary competition in the Central, along with their ownership, will have a say in it, as they have for the entire decade of 2000.

Lots of words, lots of guessing, results, well they remain to be seen, with the exception of what we have already seen, and know.

We shall see in a few years. Until then, we can just enjoy the game.

[traderumor]

Originally Posted by Ron Madden

I wish we had some kind of mix between the GM's of the past decade.

I'd take my chances with the offense of 2004/2005 with the pitching of 2009/2010.

Except the offense of 2004/2005 had to go play the field also, so the pitching of 2009/2010 would have only been slightly improved, even though the quality of arms had improved markedly.

Just as an aside, baseball with an O and D platoon would certainly be an interesting game to follow, as well.

[TRF]

not signing Harang, Arroyo and Cordero is the reds treading water. Someone has to pitch those innings, and more importantly win some games. Under JimBo, the reds likely sign Daniel Cabrera instead.

Who was available at 2B to replace BP? What SP's that can throw 200+ innings? What if Homer and Cueto don't take that step forward? With Volquez hurt, it's 2001 all over again, rushing kids and hoping for the best.

Walt managed to not trade away the farm while dumpster diving for a LF. he got Value for Griffey and potential for Dunn. SS was a move that COULD be good, could be bad, And I firmly believe the Rolen trade was a bad one long term and short term. I think Frazier has a Scott Rolen type makeup, based on everything I've read about him and that he can be a very good 3B.

I'm not missing any points, I just don't agree with your point. In fact, I think you are flat out wrong.

[TheNext44]

Two quick points about the above debate:

1) Re-signing Phillips was a smart move at the time and has proven to be even smarter. He has provided $27.3M worth of value during his first two years of the contract, which will pay him $27 over four years. So even if he doesn't play another inning for the Reds, he has already supplied surplus value.

2) In terms of replacing Harang and Arroyo, why not just replace them with Harang and Arroyo? If the Reds did not sign them to extensions, they would have been free agents and been able to be signed for around half of what they currently are getting.

[M2]

Originally Posted by TheNext44

2) In terms of replacing Harang and Arroyo, why not just replace them with Harang and Arroyo? If the Reds did not sign them to extensions, they would have been free agents and been able to be signed for around half of what they currently are getting.

By someone else. No one takes a pay cut from their current team.

[TheNext44]

Originally Posted by M2

By someone else. No one takes a pay cut from their current team.

Ramon Hernandez and Jonny Gomes say

Harang and Bronson were not going to be a free agents until after 2008. Sign them before or in the middle of that year, instead of before the 2007 season and you save ten's of millions of dollars. There was plenty of time to wait on signing these guys and still keeping them Reds.

[TRF]

Originally Posted by TheNext44

Ramon Hernandez and Jonny Gomes say

Harang and Bronson were not going to be a free agents until after 2008. Sign them before or in the middle of that year, instead of before the 2007 season and you save ten's of millions of dollars. There was plenty of time to wait on signing these guys and still keeping them Reds.

Harang might have stayed. Arroyo wouldn't have.

Gomes is lucky to even have a job. Hernandez too.

[TheNext44]

Originally Posted by TRF

Harang might have stayed. Arroyo wouldn't have.

Gomes is lucky to even have a job. Hernandez too.

I agree Gomes and Hernandez are bad comps for Harang and Bronson, but just responding to the notion that no one signs for less with their old team.

And why wouldn't Bronson sign an extension before 2008 if he was willing to sign before the 2007 season?

And just to be clear, this is all on Cast. Krivsky was just following orders with these guy's extensions. Cast was trying to prove that he was the BMOC.

[HokieRed]

O'Brien incidentally drafted Homer Bailey and Jay Bruce, not to mention a half dozen other major leaguers, and signed Cueto, Francisco., and, I believe, even Miguel Rojas, now starting to get some mention. Seems like relatively good talent recognition to me.

[Falls City Beer]

Originally Posted by HokieRed

O'Brien incidentally drafted Homer Bailey and Jay Bruce, not to mention a half dozen other major leaguers, and signed Cueto, Francisco., and, I believe, even Miguel Rojas, now starting to get some mention. Seems like relatively good talent recognition to me.

My take as well. I don't know whether O'Brien himself recognized the young talent, but he apparently understood having a minor league crew that was more interested in really scouting for skilled players and not looking for strip clubs.

O'Brien was totally outclassed as a GM who assembles a major league team, however.

[Falls City Beer]

Originally Posted by TheNext44

Two quick points about the above debate:

1) Re-signing Phillips was a smart move at the time and has proven to be even smarter. He has provided $27.3M worth of value during his first two years of the contract, which will pay him $27 over four years. So even if he doesn't play another inning for the Reds, he has already supplied surplus value.

2) In terms of replacing Harang and Arroyo, why not just replace them with Harang and Arroyo? If the Reds did not sign them to extensions, they would have been free agents and been able to be signed for around half of what they currently are getting.

Frankly, I wouldn't have extended Phillips had you put a gun to my head. Or Arroyo for that matter.