What did Walt Jocketty do differently?

[flyer85]

Originally Posted by Degenerate39

If the Reds didn't have Rolen and still had Edwin do you think Frazier would now be the starting 3rd baseman?

yes ... it is time to see if he can play and with the track record of Rolen from a health standpoint he is likely to get the chance for an extended period this season.

[flyer85]

Originally Posted by M2

TThe Reds could be a really awful offensive team.

all three OF spots are question marks. The Reds "new" SS was last a good offensive player in 2003. The oft-injured 35 year old 3B had a bounce back season in 2009 but has a long history of knee and back problems combined with declining performance. The C was last a good offensive player in 2006.

The Reds have a chance to be an abysmal offensive team and whole lot of things have to go right for them to be above average.

[Ron Madden]

Originally Posted by flyer85

all three OF spots are question marks. The Reds "new" SS was last a good offensive player in 2003. The oft-injured 35 year old 3B had a bounce back season in 2009 but has a long history of knee and back problems combined with declining performance. The C was last a good offensive player in 2006.

The Reds have a chance to be an abysmal offensive team and whole lot of things have to go right for them to be above average.

That's the way I see it too. All we can do now is hope a whole lot of things go right.

[TRF]

Not a single significant upgrade on offense in 2 years as GM, and the team's best player was drafted by JimBo.

[edabbs44]

Originally Posted by TRF

Opinion, not fact.

A lot of our discussions are opinion.

Originally Posted by TRF

Say he isn't extended then, and leaves via free agency. Say the same thing happens to Harang. That puts more pressure on two pitchers, Bailey and Cueto that just now MIGHT be coming into their own.

Opinion, not fact.

But you are right. That could have happened. But Harang and Arroyo would have left pre-2009, which is only last year. Cueto was already up and Bailey as well. I don't see how that would have cnaged the timeline. And Cincy could have just gotten a vet to take their places, no one is saying that they would have had to rush youngsters.

Originally Posted by TRF

oh, and two transactions I forgot to mention for WK.. getting Hamilton in the Rule V, and dealing him when his value was at an all time high for Volquez. the 2011 rotation of Bailey, Cueto, Volquez and probaly Chapman plus one of Leake, Wood, or whoever looks pretty nice, considering Chapman is Walt's only contribution (assuming Leake isn't the 5th starter next year.) Bailey and Cueto, acquired by DanO, their arms protected by his and WK's minor league policies.

I have repeatedly said that the Hamilton/Volquez series of moves, at this time, has been extremely overrated. Getting them for nothing was obviously a great move and should be done 100 times out of 100 if you have the chance, but there are two things which distort the perception of the situation:

• The Hamilton "story"
• Edinson's first half of 2008

Volquez was an absolute stud pre ASB 2008 and, since then, has been somewhat middle of the road. Still an asset, but not a TOR starter like he appeared to be when he first arrived. And now, after surgery, who knows? TJ is becoming more routine than it has historically been, but you never know. So, at this point, that tremendous series of moves has netter Cincy 90ish somewhat productive games from Hamilton, one great half from Volquez and 1+ middle of the road half from him as well. At this point, it has been beneficial due to what was given up (nothing) but overall it is highly overrated.

Originally Posted by TRF

And that shouldn't be overlooked.

Noted.

[edabbs44]

Originally Posted by TRF

Not a single significant upgrade on offense in 2 years as GM, and the team's best player was drafted by JimBo.

How would you suggest he could have significantly upgraded the offense? In all seriousness. Taking into account the fact that the economy crashed, he had little payroll flexibility and when other GMs were holding on to young talent like grim death.

[edabbs44]

Originally Posted by flyer85

all three OF spots are question marks. The Reds "new" SS was last a good offensive player in 2003. The oft-injured 35 year old 3B had a bounce back season in 2009 but has a long history of knee and back problems combined with declining performance. The C was last a good offensive player in 2006.

The Reds have a chance to be an abysmal offensive team and whole lot of things have to go right for them to be above average.

Could be.

[flyer85]

Originally Posted by M2

I don't require a recap of the 2006 draft. I was the guy arguing the Reds should have been in on Porcello while the team was drafting Mesoraco.

and not being in on him looks rather silly since they shelled out $30M for Chapman. Especially since the argument for all the teams that passed on him was simply they couldn't afford to sign him. ANY team could have afforded to sign him.

[edabbs44]

Originally Posted by flyer85

and not being in on him looks rather silly since they shelled out $30M for Chapman. Especially since the argument for all the teams that passed on him was simply they couldn't afford to sign him. ANY team could have afforded to sign him.

Maybe not "afford to sign him", I think it was more that they couldn't afford the risk of signing him.

But I agree with you anyway, watching the team shell out roughly the same amt of money on Stanton and seeing them pass on Porcello killed me.

[Ltlabner]

When your best argument in favor of a GM is that he didn't do anything crazy while producing yet another losing season it's not exactly inspiring.

Wait...er...uh...Walt's got an impressive track record in total as a GM. His performance whilst at the helm of the Reds. Not so much.

[edabbs44]

Originally Posted by Ltlabner

When your best argument in favor of a GM is that he didn't do anything crazy while producing yet another losing season it's not exactly inspiring.

Wait...er...uh...Walt's got an impressive track record in total as a GM. His performance whilst at the helm of the Reds. Not so much.

When you hands are temporarily tied due to an economic crisis (both regarding the team and the nation), it is difficult to do anything of substance in the short-term.

[Ltlabner]

Originally Posted by edabbs44

When you hands are temporarily tied due to an economic crisis (both regarding the team and the nation), it is difficult to do anything of substance in the short-term.

So you spend money on bringing back Hernandez, to bring in an SS who best days are likely behind him, some sort of increase for Rolen and money to resign Gomes?

If we were really that strapped, go with the kids as ultra cheep options.

[TRF]

Originally Posted by edabbs44

How would you suggest he could have significantly upgraded the offense? In all seriousness. Taking into account the fact that the economy crashed, he had little payroll flexibility and when other GMs were holding on to young talent like grim death.

The market tanked at the end of 2009, not 2008. He'd been with the Reds in some capacity for over a year, most of that as GM, and the man isn't an idiot. (and no one is making him out to be one.) The free agent list after the 2008 season had some names on it. there were moves to be made, and prospect wise, the Reds had a damn fine system. And the Reds didn't need young talent, they needed a bat or three. They had young talent to deal, something every GM wanted.

Admittedly Walt did this when he acquired Rolen. He traded from strength, but he traded for his GM blind spot. Just as you have said Arroyo was Krivsky's, Rolen certainly is Walt's.

[bucksfan2]

Originally Posted by TRF

The market tanked at the end of 2009, not 2008. He'd been with the Reds in some capacity for over a year, most of that as GM, and the man isn't an idiot. (and no one is making him out to be one.) The free agent list after the 2008 season had some names on it. there were moves to be made, and prospect wise, the Reds had a damn fine system. And the Reds didn't need young talent, they needed a bat or three. They had young talent to deal, something every GM wanted.

The collapse was underway in 2008. The investment bank crisis was happening in Sept of 08. IIRC the FA market collapse happened right around Jan 09. I remember Jeremy Afeldt and his agent getting some criticism for signing with the Giants so early in free agency only to come out on top with what now is an above market contract for a RP.

[westofyou]

The market tanked at the end of 2009, not 2008.

Abreu begs to differ