What did Walt Jocketty do differently?

[TRF]

Originally Posted by bucksfan2

The collapse was underway in 2008. The investment bank crisis was happening in Sept of 08. IIRC the FA market collapse happened right around Jan 09. I remember Jeremy Afeldt and his agent getting some criticism for signing with the Giants so early in free agency only to come out on top with what now is an above market contract for a RP.

The FA market collapse didn't affect the Reds adversely, it was a boon. Walt could have overspent at the end of 2008, or he could have reaped the reward of a soft market.

He did neither.

As for trading from surplus, he did that, as i mentioned. I just think the target was his blind spot, a player he was fond of that is older, a health risk, and had seen his numbers in decline the two years prior. I hope it works out, but If Frazier is tearing up AAA it will look bad IMO.

[TRF]

Originally Posted by westofyou

Abreu begs to differ

yeah, I had forgotten that. still the market tanking helps the Reds, not hurts them.

[TRF]

Also, not to be a run on poster here, I think we are seeing a post PED market correction. Nobody wants to hand out millions to 35 year old players anymore. The return isn't what it used to be.

[edabbs44]

Originally Posted by Ltlabner

So you spend money on bringing back Hernandez, to bring in an SS who best days are likely behind him, some sort of increase for Rolen and money to resign Gomes?

If we were really that strapped, go with the kids as ultra cheep options.

Hernandez, Gomes and Cabrera will make what, roughly $6MM combined this year?

I agree Rolen is real money, these guys are play money.

[edabbs44]

Originally Posted by TRF

The FA market collapse didn't affect the Reds adversely, it was a boon. Walt could have overspent at the end of 2008, or he could have reaped the reward of a soft market.

He did neither.

Sort through the FA class of 2008-2009 and see how many of the middle to upper class signed with smaller markets or non-contenders.

Walt would have had to seriously overpaid in both dollars and years to get any of those guys.

[edabbs44]

Originally Posted by TRF

Admittedly Walt did this when he acquired Rolen. He traded from strength, but he traded for his GM blind spot. Just as you have said Arroyo was Krivsky's, Rolen certainly is Walt's.

I agree conceptually with one caveat: Rolen's years here are more in line with the timing of when this team should be expected to move into contending mode, which has been my argument all along. Pay for players like Arroyo and Cordero when the rest of the team is in line, not 3 years before.

[TRF]

Originally Posted by edabbs44

Sort through the FA class of 2008-2009 and see how many of the middle to upper class signed with smaller markets or non-contenders.

Walt would have had to seriously overpaid in both dollars and years to get any of those guys.

Sure. now remove all the FA's 34 and older.

The list is even smaller. Walt has to adjust to the economy. No one is denying that. But then Walt inherited a team markedly better than the one WK walked into. And the infrastructure was light years better, based on the drafting and international signings of his two predecessors.

So if you can't buy the talent, you trade for it. But if you don't want to shell out money for 34+ year old talent, WHY WHY WHY would you ever pay for it with your young talent?

3B was a need. EE wasn't going to get better at the position, and he's likely moving to the OF in the next year or two. But Frazier was on the cusp. Sutton was in house. Francisco, Janish, Rosales. All could have manned 3B for the rest of 2009 in what was a lost season. If you are concerned about money, that was the way to go. It means one more ST with one more position in open competition. Or maybe it means Sutton is the starter. Who knows.

So, not only did Walt give up way too much in the terms of young talent for Rolen, he EXTENDED him, knowing his injury history and his age, and his declining offensive numbers.

If his name were Krivsky and he did that, you'd be vilifying him for it.

[Ltlabner]

Originally Posted by edabbs44

Hernandez, Gomes and Cabrera will make what, roughly $6MM combined this year?

I agree Rolen is real money, these guys are play money.

Cash strapped is cash strapped. You can't have it both ways. If things are that tight, don't nickel and dime yourself to death.

Don't bring in outside options for CF when you have inhouse options. Don't bring in the JHJ's of the world. Don't sign the Mike Lincolns of the world. Don't extend the Rolen.

If you are going to say Walt's hands are tied because of money you can't then turn around and say those contracts don't matter.

[Spring~Fields]

Originally Posted by edabbs44

Sort through the FA class of 2008-2009 and see how many of the middle to upper class signed with smaller markets or non-contenders.

Walt would have had to seriously overpaid in both dollars and years to get any of those guys.

Those are obstacles and barriers to achieving organizational goals and objectives.

But, I guess that might be “my problem”, with some of your points, no matter how well you state them or endure the course with it.

For example you will list what seems to be reasonable obstacles, barriers and hurdles that Mr. Jocketty has to deal with and that really can be hindrances, and basically you ask us or say that we should be reasonable and excuse what has been for him.

Yet, you don’t seem to list and consider that Bowden, O’Brien and Krivsky, had obstacles, barriers and hurdles that hindered them too, many of those same hindrances that you ask us to be reasonable about when discussing Mr. Jocketty could readily or easily be applied to his predecessors too. You seem to want us to discount to a great deal anything that the predecessors did accomplish or do right, also.

Most of all we really don’t know what ownership or that ownership group laid out for those GM’s to function under. We certainly can guess that it wasn’t that great of a environment to succeed in, certainly not compared to the one in St. Louis 2000 forward.

Jim Bowden as much I don’t like him, for years was neck and neck with Walt Jocketty and the St. Louis Cardinals, and they were truly competitive with one another, not this thing we call completive now, fourth or fifth place and a hopless prayer every off-season or spring, then a long endurance of frustration. Those two organizations took turns at being on top and winning. Until the dollars changed in large amounts upward for St. Louis, and stagnated for Bowden and the Reds.

I think that you should at least consider that each of the GM’s have or had some serious obstacles with their time with the Reds.

Not just in favor of supporting your points on Jocketty.

I don’t think that you will be given your points until, you also recognize what the men before Jocketty had to work with, and in the environment that they were asked to succeed in, and correctly give them credit for what they did right, not just what they did wrong.

Then again we have to run some double mindedness when arguing Jocketty vs the others, because we want Jocketty to do very well on one hand, but on the other we are trying to argue against him because of some of the double standards that are not right vs the other guys. It is hard to play it both ways, at the same time.

[OnBaseMachine]

Originally Posted by Ltlabner

If you are going to say Walt's hands are tied because of money you can't then turn around and say those contracts don't matter.

Yep. It's okay to blast Krivsky for the smaller contracts he gave Stanton and Cormier but if Walt does something similar, then who cares, it's only roughly $6M.

[bucksfan2]

Originally Posted by TRF

Also, not to be a run on poster here, I think we are seeing a post PED market correction. Nobody wants to hand out millions to 35 year old players anymore. The return isn't what it used to be.

I agree wholeheartedly with this. Gone are the days of 38 year old impact players. You will still see some good players play at a high level into their late 30's but I think they will be more outliers than anything. I don't think we will ever see a Barry Bonds type player late into his 30's and even 40's.

So if you can't buy the talent, you trade for it. But if you don't want to shell out money for 34+ year old talent, WHY WHY WHY would you ever pay for it with your young talent?

3B was a need. EE wasn't going to get better at the position, and he's likely moving to the OF in the next year or two. But Frazier was on the cusp. Sutton was in house. Francisco, Janish, Rosales. All could have manned 3B for the rest of 2009 in what was a lost season. If you are concerned about money, that was the way to go. It means one more ST with one more position in open competition. Or maybe it means Sutton is the starter. Who knows.

I don't think Frazier is ready yet. I also am in no way shape or form comfortable handing the job to Sutton. As Rosales proved last season he isn't an every day player and I have heard Francisco is very, very raw at 3b. So year the Reds needed a 3b and didn't exactly have an immediate answer.

I also think Rolen provided veteran stability. He has been on winning teams before and knows how to win. I have also read where people were very impressed with his work ethic. At the time the Reds were in a downward spiral playing very poor baseball. Heck they were probably playing some of the worst baseball over the past decade. Sometimes it isn't just what you bring to the field but also what you add off the field. IMO Rolen's impact will be felt both places.

As for Stewart, he was a nice prospect that the Reds traded away. But you have to consider Walt replaced him with Leake and Chapman. A fair enough trade off for me. At some point the 3b position needed to be addressed and Edwin needed to be jettisoned.

IMO since the date of the trade the Reds are both better on the major league level as well as minor league level.

[edabbs44]

Originally Posted by Ltlabner

Cash strapped is cash strapped. You can't have it both ways. If things are that tight, don't nickel and dime yourself to death.

Don't bring in outside options for CF when you have inhouse options. Don't bring in the JHJ's of the world. Don't sign the Mike Lincolns of the world. Don't extend the Rolen.

If you are going to say Walt's hands are tied because of money you can't then turn around and say those contracts don't matter.

You do need bodies to play at some point. There is also some worth to lower priced people, as they could turn around and have some trade value in July. I agree that these guys weren't the best signings, but then again add them all up and they total less than one of the big signings we have been discussing.

I can admit that these weren't the best uses of money in the end (that is quite obvious), but please admit that WK had his Lincolns and JHJs (namely Stanton, Cormier, Conine, and Freel) on top of the bigger ones (Gonzo, Harang, Cordero and Arroyo). At least admit that.

[TRF]

Originally Posted by Spring~Fields

Those are obstacles and barriers to achieving organizational goals and objectives.

But, I guess that might be “my problem”, with some of your points, no matter how well you state them or endure the course with it.

For example you will list what seems to be reasonable obstacles, barriers and hurdles that Mr. Jocketty has to deal with and that really can be hindrances, and basically you ask us or say that we should be reasonable and excuse what has been for him.

Yet, you don’t seem to list and consider that Bowden, O’Brien and Krivsky, had obstacles, barriers and hurdles that hindered them too, many of those same hindrances that you ask us to be reasonable about when discussing Mr. Jocketty could readily or easily be applied to his predecessors too. You seem to want us to discount to a great deal anything that the predecessors did accomplish or do right, also.

Most of all we really don’t know what ownership or that ownership group laid out for those GM’s to function under. We certainly can guess that it wasn’t that great of a environment to succeed in, certainly not compared to the one in St. Louis 2000 forward.

Jim Bowden as much I don’t like him, for years was neck and neck with Walt Jocketty and the St. Louis Cardinals, and they were truly competitive with one another, not this thing we call completive now, fourth or fifth place and a hopless prayer every off-season or spring, then a long endurance of frustration. Those two organizations took turns at being on top and winning. Until the dollars changed in large amounts upward for St. Louis, and stagnated for Bowden and the Reds.

I think that you should at least consider that each of the GM’s have some serious obstacles with their time with the Reds. Not just in favor of supporting your points on Jocketty. I don’t think that you will be given your points until, you also recognize what the men before Jocketty had to work with, and in the environment that they were asked to succeed in, and correctly give them credit for what they did right, not just what they did wrong.

Then again we have to run some double mindedness when arguing Jocketty vs the others, because we want Jocketty to do very well on one hand, but on the other we are trying to argue against him because of some of the double standards that are not right vs the other guys. It is hard to play it both ways, at the same time.

Outstanding post. said better than me in every way.

[edabbs44]

Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine

Yep. It's okay to blast Krivsky for the smaller contracts he gave Stanton and Cormier but if Walt does something similar, then who cares, it's only roughly $6M.

If Walt had also mistimed a significant increase in payroll commitments at the same time as the Lincoln and JHJ signings, I'd be less positive about him.

One large issue I had with WK's contracts is that it coincided with less activity in LatAm and safer, less expensive picks in the draft. Can you at least agree with that? I saw Stanton getting $6MM and Porcello getting passed up. Now I am seeing guys lik Yorman getting signed, guys like Alonso getting above slot and guys like Chapman getting competitive bids.

Do you agree that there is a difference now in that regard?

[TRF]

Originally Posted by edabbs44

If Walt had also mistimed a significant increase in payroll commitments at the same time as the Lincoln and JHJ signings, I'd be less positive about him.

One large issue I had with WK's contracts is that it coincided with less activity in LatAm and safer, less expensive picks in the draft. Can you at least agree with that? I saw Stanton getting $6MM and Porcello getting passed up. Now I am seeing guys lik Yorman getting signed, guys like Alonso getting above slot and guys like Chapman getting competitive bids.

Do you agree that there is a difference now in that regard?

Krivsky signed Juan Duran.

just sayin'

And Tzu-Kai Chiu. Not Latin obviously, but an international signing.