Zach Stewart's progress

[lollipopcurve]

After his first 2 starts in AA in the Blue Jays' system (one good, one disastrous):

W L ERA IP H R ER BB K GB/FB BA against
1 1 7.71 9.1 13 8 8 5 7 0.75 .325

[camisadelgolf]

Josh Roenicke has been lights out over four appearances in AAA. EE has been mediocre in Toronto so far.

[TRF]

EE is on the DL, I don't expect him to hit before July honestly. Its a wrist thing. For Stewart and Roenicke, its good to see them having success, even if its a mixed bag for stewart so far. I bet he pitches in TOR at some point this year.

[fearofpopvol1]

I'd like to see Roenicke and Stewart pitch well at the show before I annoint them as anything. Roenicke pitched great at Louisville too. As did Stewart and AA.

One thing that has shown to be true...Rolen is producing for the Reds at a high level.

[Benihana]

Originally Posted by fearofpopvol1

I'd like to see Roenicke and Stewart pitch well at the show before I annoint them as anything.

You mean like Cy Young?

Roenicke pitched great at Louisville too. As did Stewart and AA.

One thing that has shown to be true...Rolen is producing for the Reds at a high level.

Yep. Good trade. Now let's make more like them.

[dougdirt]

Originally Posted by Benihana

Yep. Good trade. Now let's make more like them.

It was still a bad trade, though acquiring Rolen was a good idea. I think that is something people seem to misrepresent the side who didn't like the trade with. Scott Rolen was forcing his way to a team in the Midwest and the Blue Jays were making it happen. So that leaves the Cards (already been there, left on bad terms, wasn't going back), Cubs (Aramis Ramirez, they didn't need Rolen), White Sox (they were playing Beckham there, who wasn't going anywhere) and the Reds. So really, we were the only team making bids and gave up at the time our best starting pitching prospect. Bad trade for a good player. Glad to have Rolen as a Red. Still think we gave up too much.

[OnBaseMachine]

Originally Posted by dougdirt

It was still a bad trade, though acquiring Rolen was a good idea. I think that is something people seem to misrepresent the side who didn't like the trade with. Scott Rolen was forcing his way to a team in the Midwest and the Blue Jays were making it happen. So that leaves the Cards (already been there, left on bad terms, wasn't going back), Cubs (Aramis Ramirez, they didn't need Rolen), White Sox (they were playing Beckham there, who wasn't going anywhere) and the Reds. So really, we were the only team making bids and gave up at the time our best starting pitching prospect. Bad trade for a good player. Glad to have Rolen as a Red. Still think we gave up too much.

That's exactly how I feel. I'm thrilled to have Scott Rolen on the Reds but I just wish they could've found a way to keep Zach Stewart.

[mth123]

Originally Posted by dougdirt

It was still a bad trade, though acquiring Rolen was a good idea. I think that is something people seem to misrepresent the side who didn't like the trade with. Scott Rolen was forcing his way to a team in the Midwest and the Blue Jays were making it happen. So that leaves the Cards (already been there, left on bad terms, wasn't going back), Cubs (Aramis Ramirez, they didn't need Rolen), White Sox (they were playing Beckham there, who wasn't going anywhere) and the Reds. So really, we were the only team making bids and gave up at the time our best starting pitching prospect. Bad trade for a good player. Glad to have Rolen as a Red. Still think we gave up too much.

Correct.

[Will M]

any trades involving prospects can't be fully judged for years after the fact. i could buy the 'we gave up too much' arguement if Stewart develops into a MOR starter or setup man (or better).

lets say that he is just a BOR starter & Roenicke is a AAAA man. add our getting rid of EE. if Rolen keeps up his good play then the trade was good for the Reds.

or maybe Rolen's back prevents him from playing more than 80 games this year. in that case it was a bad trade for the Reds.

or maybe Rolen plays well for the Reds but Stewart becomes a #2 starter for the Jays. then its a bad trade for us.

you can say 'i think it was a bad trade for the Reds' now but you really can't say 'it was a bad trade for the Reds' now. only time will tell.

[mth123]

Originally Posted by Will M

any trades involving prospects can't be fully judged for years after the fact. i could buy the 'we gave up too much' arguement if Stewart develops into a MOR starter or setup man (or better).

lets say that he is just a BOR starter & Roenicke is a AAAA man. add our getting rid of EE. if Rolen keeps up his good play then the trade was good for the Reds.

or maybe Rolen's back prevents him from playing more than 80 games this year. in that case it was a bad trade for the Reds.

or maybe Rolen plays well for the Reds but Stewart becomes a #2 starter for the Jays. then its a bad trade for us.

you can say 'i think it was a bad trade for the Reds' now but you really can't say 'it was a bad trade for the Reds' now. only time will tell.

Its not about what he becomes. Its about what else they could have gotten for him at the time. Put me down as one that thinks the Jays were backed into a corner of having to sell and the Reds being the only potential buyer.

Meanwhile, if Stewart was to be dealt, he could/should have been used to address another area of need with possibly a more long term solution.

[dougdirt]

Originally Posted by Will M

you can say 'i think it was a bad trade for the Reds' now but you really can't say 'it was a bad trade for the Reds' now. only time will tell.

I think we can say right now that Stewart's value was high and nothing in the future changes his value at the time of the trade.

[Will M]

Originally Posted by mth123

Its not about what he becomes. Its about what else they could have gotten for him at the time. Put me down as one that thinks the Jays were backed into a corner of having to sell and the Reds being the only potential buyer.

Meanwhile, if Stewart was to be dealt, he could/should have been used to address another area of need with possibly a more long term solution.

i undertsnad this line of reasoning. this is the same sort of arguement that people who hated "The Trade" make. you may think that Walt sold too cheap on Stewart. i may think the deal was the best he could come up with considering the albatross that went north. we both have an opinion & there is really no way to prove nor disprove either one. we certainly are not privvy to the conversations Walt had with the Jays or any other team.

#1 so we can each have our opinion about what the value of Stewart/Roenicke/EE vs Rolen was.
#2 as to the deal itself whether or not it was good or bad: we have to wait & see how the participants do

[mth123]

Originally Posted by Will M

i undertsnad this line of reasoning. this is the same sort of arguement that people who hated "The Trade" make. you may think that Walt sold too cheap on Stewart. i may think the deal was the best he could come up with considering the albatross that went north. we both have an opinion & there is really no way to prove nor disprove either one. we certainly are not privvy to the conversations Walt had with the Jays or any other team.

#1 so we can each have our opinion about what the value of Stewart/Roenicke/EE vs Rolen was.
#2 as to the deal itself whether or not it was good or bad: we have to wait & see how the participants do

Guess I just wouldn't use up my top chip to move the albatross. Use him to get talent that requires his presence in the deal. Meanwhile the talent he did bring back was obtainable another way IMO.

I the albatross couldn't be moved, he would look pretty good on the reds bench instead of Migiel Cairo IMO or maybe they pass on Gomes and play him in LF. He would be a RH option for when Votto sits and could even play 3B when Rolen is out. The Reds really have no RH bench option at this point. The trade upgraded 3B and pretty much every person who didn't like the deal thinks so. But you can upgrade and still overpay at the same time.

Everybody who ever replaced thier clunker auto with a nice new car, that they found later for a lesser price knows the feeling.

[Benihana]

Originally Posted by dougdirt

It was still a bad trade, though acquiring Rolen was a good idea. I think that is something people seem to misrepresent the side who didn't like the trade with. Scott Rolen was forcing his way to a team in the Midwest and the Blue Jays were making it happen. So that leaves the Cards (already been there, left on bad terms, wasn't going back), Cubs (Aramis Ramirez, they didn't need Rolen), White Sox (they were playing Beckham there, who wasn't going anywhere) and the Reds. So really, we were the only team making bids and gave up at the time our best starting pitching prospect. Bad trade for a good player. Glad to have Rolen as a Red. Still think we gave up too much.

I actually can't say I disagree with much of this. I do think that people on this board do sometimes get caught up in hoarding prospects. While it would be nice to still have Stewart, you have to give something to get something. We along with the rest of the talking heads can debate all day as to whether or not we could have gotten Rolen for less, but the fact of the matter is that none of us has any idea. Walt saw an opportunity and pounced. The price may have been high, but in the end the product was worth it. Unlike mth's sweet new car analogy, there aren't many Scott Rolen's to go around that are also available. Sometimes you have to pay up for a scarce resource.

I can also admit when I'm wrong. I did not like the trade at the time, and said so on this very board. I am more than comfortable with it now, and actually would like to see another move like it.

[TheNext44]

Originally Posted by dougdirt

It was still a bad trade, though acquiring Rolen was a good idea. I think that is something people seem to misrepresent the side who didn't like the trade with. Scott Rolen was forcing his way to a team in the Midwest and the Blue Jays were making it happen. So that leaves the Cards (already been there, left on bad terms, wasn't going back), Cubs (Aramis Ramirez, they didn't need Rolen), White Sox (they were playing Beckham there, who wasn't going anywhere) and the Reds. So really, we were the only team making bids and gave up at the time our best starting pitching prospect. Bad trade for a good player. Glad to have Rolen as a Red. Still think we gave up too much.

1) The White Sox have already moved Beckham off of third and signed Teahen to replace him, so I think that they would have gladly tried to get Rolen.

2) The Cardinals might have been willing to take Rolen back, considering that they still haven't found a replacement for him. Yeah, it would have been awkward, but good teams don't let personal crap get in the way of winning, and that is all that was between Rolen and LaRussa. It wasn't like Rolen was a bad influence, he just wanted more playing time. LaRussa's ego probably prevented it, but I don't think we can assume that they didn't make an offer.

3) I flunked Geometry, but I think Cleveland, Detroit, Kansas City, Minnesota and Milwaukee are all still in the Midwest. And pretty much all of them were/are looking for a 3B, and Rolen is an upgrade over what they each currently have.

Truth is, we don't know who was offering what for Rolen at the trading deadline.

I did back then, and still agree with you that Stewart was too high of a price, hated that he was included, and still do. But it might have been the only way to get Rolen, and right now, in hindsight, I am glad that the Reds overpaid.