Drew Stubbs

[RedsManRick]

Originally Posted by Chip R

Also, Stubbs is making the minimum while Taveras and Patterson made good money.

And Stubbs has a few hundred major league plate appearances; Taveras and Patterson had 1000's to prove that they were not good hitters period, let alone leadoff candidates. We are still in the process of figuring out what Stubbs can do with major league pitching. In the words of Denny Green, Taveras and Patterson were who we thought they were.

[Spring~Fields]

Originally Posted by TheNext44

Willie Taveras on May 13, 2009

.322 .382 .413 .796

Corey Patterson on May 2, 2008

.214 .280 .464 .744

Moral:

It's early.

Are you saying that any of three, Taveras, Patterson or Stubbs are good major league leadoff batters?

[Spring~Fields]

Originally Posted by RedsManRick

And Stubbs has a few hundred major league plate appearances; Taveras and Patterson had 1000's to prove that they were not good hitters period, let alone leadoff candidates. We are still in the process of figuring out what Stubbs can do with major league pitcher. In the words of Denny Green, Taveras and Patterson were who we thought they were.

Rick,
How long would you have had any of the three leading off for a team made up like Cincinnati, if you would have had them leading off at all?

[TheNext44]

Originally Posted by Spring~Fields

Are you saying that any of three, Taveras, Patterson or Stubbs are good leadoff batters?

I'm saying those numbers don't tell us.

Personally, I think Stubbs is a terrible leadoff hitter. I've said before, he reminds me more of Eric Davis than Vince Coleman (although he probably will end up more like Caesar Geronimo with a bit more power and a lot more speed). If he ever gets moved to the middle of the lineup, or even the #2 slot, I think he'll be fine.

[Ron Madden]

Originally Posted by flyer85

the difference is simply this (this is in no way an endorsement of Stubbs), Patterson and Taveras had already established who they were by the time they got to Cincinnati. Everyone knew what was coming, with Stubbs there is some hope, even if it is small.

Agreed 100%.

[Ron Madden]

Originally Posted by RedsManRick

And Stubbs has a few hundred major league plate appearances; Taveras and Patterson had 1000's to prove that they were not good hitters period, let alone leadoff candidates. We are still in the process of figuring out what Stubbs can do with major league pitcher. In the words of Denny Green, Taveras and Patterson were who we thought they were.

Very true 98.5% of RedsZone saw what was comming with Willy Taveras, the sad thing is Walt and Dusty didn't.

[Spring~Fields]

Originally Posted by TheNext44

If he ever gets moved to the middle of the lineup, or even the #2 slot, I think he'll be fine.

See you and I would do that, we might have never put the pressure on him to begin with at the leadoff spot, and we would move him down, even try him in the #2 slot eventually. The powers that be, did not do that in a timely manner with Patterson, Taveras, or Stubbs, under the umbrella of reasoning that it was early and that they would hit.

It somewhat changes the complexion and perception if those type of production is not leading off.

I think he'll be fine

He could be, he might have been already, hitting down in the order. But he isn't batting down in the order.

[Spring~Fields]

Originally Posted by Ron Madden

Very true 98.5% of RedsZone saw what was comming with Willy Taveras, the sad thing is Walt and Dusty didn't.

3rd time a charm? :all_cohol

They've basically done the same thing again.

[Ghosts of 1990]

Phillips leads off. Rolen, then votto then Bruce then cabrera. From there toy as you'd like. Phillips needs to lead off

[TheNext44]

Originally Posted by JayBruce32

Phillips leads off. Rolen, then votto then Bruce then cabrera. From there toy as you'd like. Phillips needs to lead off

I think you have illuminated the real issue. This team has no true leadoff hitter.

Phillips might be the best bet, but that is sad if true.

[RedsManRick]

Originally Posted by Spring~Fields

Rick,
How long would you have had any of the three leading off for a team made up like Cincinnati, if you would have had them leading off at all?

Firstly, neither Patterson nor Taveras would be on my team. And if they were on my team, they'd primarily have been defensive replacements and pinch runners. When they did bat, they would have bat low in the order. Patterson 7th or 8th, Taveras 9th. Stubbs would be batting 7th or 8th. He's struggled mightily, but I'm not going to render on a judgement until he's had another few hundred PA. It's not like we have other options beating down our door and he does have potential.

I would caution us to not lump Taveras with Patterson and Stubbs. Taveras is Juan Pierre with only good contact rates instead of elite ones. Patterson and Stubbs are more similar, in that they both have power potential, but are hampered in their ability to use it due low contact rates resulting from a long swing. The difference between the two is that Stubbs has better discipline than Patterson, which gives him a better shot of sticking.

However, unless and until Stubbs starts making more contact on balls in the zone, he's got no shot. His contact rate is 4th lowest in baseball. While you can get away with low contact rates if you have great plate discipline and prodigious power, his discipline is merely good and he's not found a way to consistently hit for power. The 3 guys below him: Reynolds, Blanks and Upton (Justin). The 3 above him Kemp, Dunn and Hamilton.

Bottom line, I don't think the Reds have a better CF option right now than Stubbs (unless you count Bruce, which the Reds don't), so he should be playing every day. But it's not a good idea to continue batting him leadoff everyday. Speed is more valuable lower in the lineup (where bases are harder to advance and less costly to lose) and we should be giving more PA to our best hitters. I'd be playing Hanigan 4 days a week and leading him off when he plays. When Hernandez plays, push Phillips to leadoff, Rolen to 2nd.

[Phhhl]

Everyone thought Justin Upton broke out last year, but he is scuffling so far this year too. Joey Votto isn't raking like the entire planet predicted either, by the way. It is extremely early to give up on a player with Drew's explosive skill set, not to mention one whose success is so important to the success of this team this year. It is painfully obvious that he has a tough time with anything crooked, so I agree that it is perfectly reasonable to drop him lower in the order at least until he puts it together, where he might see more fastballs. But, I am pretty happy with what Dusty has done on this last road trip by shaking up the lineup. Not only does putting Phillips in the 2 hole in front of a guy who either steals second or doesn't get on base at all neutralize Brandon's propensity to hit into double plays, it provides a power threat at the top of the order to try and force pitchers to give Stubbs more fastballs. Although I would like to see Stubbs dropped in the order and take some of the pressure off his shoulders until he proves himself, at least it shows that Dusty is thinking about how lineup construction may be effecting production. THAT is major progress for those of you in the cf hits first "dude", shortstop hits second camp.

Drew Stubbs is critical to the success of this team. He provides exceptional defense for a team that is starving for it, and speed and power. Aside from Votto and Bruce, he is clearly the most important position player on this team. Dusty needs to do whatever it takes to leverage Drew Stubbs to succeed, and be as patient as it takes to get that done. We need to be smart in how he is treated. Otherwise, the good pitching we are bound to get as the season progresses will be wasted.

Some flexibility is fine, but giving up on Drew Stubbs now would be in direct alignment with giving up on the season.

[Sea Ray]

Oh great another Stubbs thread...

[cincrazy]

The talent stream into this organization has improved immensely the past few years, but outside of Bruce, there are no clear cut options in the future in regards to the outfield. The best bet in center and left may be for the Reds to go outside of the organization to fill those holes, because I don't think Dickerson or Stubbs is the answer, and leftfield isn't much different (and when I say go outside of the organization, I'm not talking about taking a flier on the Jonny Gomes' of the world, I'm talking about legitimate talent).

[cincrazy]

Originally Posted by Santo Alcala

Everyone thought Justin Upton broke out last year, but he is scuffling so far this year too. Joey Votto isn't raking like the entire planet predicted either, by the way. It is extremely early to give up on a player with Drew's explosive skill set, not to mention one whose success is so important to the success of this team this year. It is painfully obvious that he has a tough time with anything crooked, so I agree that it is perfectly reasonable to drop him lower in the order at least until he puts it together, where he might see more fastballs. But, I am pretty happy with what Dusty has done on this last road trip by shaking up the lineup. Not only does putting Phillips in the 2 hole in front of a guy who either steals second or doesn't get on base at all neutralize Brandon's propensity to hit into double plays, it provides a power threat at the top of the order to try and force pitchers to give Stubbs more fastballs. Although I would like to see Stubbs dropped in the order and take some of the pressure off his shoulders until he proves himself, at least it shows that Dusty is thinking about how lineup construction may be effecting production. THAT is major progress for those of you in the cf hits first "dude", shortstop hits second camp.

Drew Stubbs is critical to the success of this team. He provides exceptional defense for a team that is starving for it, and speed and power. Aside from Votto and Bruce, he is clearly the most important position player on this team. Dusty needs to do whatever it takes to leverage Drew Stubbs to succeed, and be as patient as it takes to get that done. We need to be smart in how he is treated. Otherwise, the good pitching we are bound to get as the season progresses will be wasted.

Some flexibility is fine, but giving up on Drew Stubbs now would be in direct alignment with giving up on the season.

With all due respect, that's why this team is going to struggle this season. This guy has done nothing while in this organization to prove that he can be a competent centerfielder, yet we're banking on him to have a succesful season. He may have an explosive skills package, but so did Ruben Rivera, and you couldn't find a more terrible ballplayer than him.

I'm not saying that Stubbs is a complete bust, not yet anyways. But I am saying he wasn't that good of a player in the minors, so why on earth would it be any different in the majors?