Cliff Lee

[Captain Hook]

Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine

There's no way I would trade Bruce for Lee. Alonso? Heck yes.

I'm almost on board with this.I'm just surprised that more people aren't wanting an outfielder for a package that would include Alonso.Seems like the preference would be Lee over a guy like Sizemore.I would much rather the Reds try to package Alonso and Stubbs for Grady then I would want them to get a rental for the final few months.

Once again I'd really like to add Lee but I just think the Reds could improve the team for the stretch and do so with the teams future in mind as well.

[Falls City Beer]

Hey, remember all those chances the Reds have had over the last fifteen years to make it to the postseason?

Yeah, me neither.

If you can get Lee, you search for the dotted line to sign.

[MWM]

Meh, I'm just in the camp that thinks Bruce is too much of a free swinger and that he'll not likely reach where we all thought he would when he first came up. He reminds me a lot of Jeff Franceour. I hope like hell he proves me way off as I've been many times before. Of course, a right field solution would need to found, but this is Cliff Lee we're talking about.

[westofyou]

Originally Posted by MWM

Meh, I'm just in the camp that thinks Bruce is too much of a free swinger and that he'll not likely reach where we all thought he would when he first came up. He reminds me a lot of Jeff Franceour. I hope like hell he proves me way off as I've been many times before. Of course, a right field solution would need to found, but this is Cliff Lee we're talking about.

Jeff Francoeur averages a BB every 21 PA's Bruce every 11, they really aren't that similar, plus Bruce has more power.

Cliff Lee is nice, but as a rental I wouldn't trade Bruce.

[Mario-Rijo]

Originally Posted by MWM

Meh, I'm just in the camp that thinks Bruce is too much of a free swinger and that he'll not likely reach where we all thought he would when he first came up. He reminds me a lot of Jeff Franceour. I hope like hell he proves me way off as I've been many times before. Of course, a right field solution would need to found, but this is Cliff Lee we're talking about.

Not at all a fair comparison, Jay Bruce isn't at all close to as free a swinger. As a matter of fact I'd venture to say (without benefit of the numbers in front of me) that Jay is much closer to average in his discipline than he is the far and poor extreme of Francouer. And I agree with the others who say no way do I deal Bruce for Lee.

[OnBaseMachine]

Originally Posted by MWM

Meh, I'm just in the camp that thinks Bruce is too much of a free swinger and that he'll not likely reach where we all thought he would when he first came up. He reminds me a lot of Jeff Franceour. I hope like hell he proves me way off as I've been many times before. Of course, a right field solution would need to found, but this is Cliff Lee we're talking about.

Bruce is on pace for 80+ walks this season.

[Falls City Beer]

Even if he's an .850 OPS rightfielder, I still trade him for Lee. Every 5th day you have Lee instead of Bailey? Goodness.

[MWM]

Originally Posted by westofyou

Jeff Francoeur averages a BB every 21 PA's Bruce every 11, they really aren't that similar, plus Bruce has more power.

Cliff Lee is nice, but as a rental I wouldn't trade Bruce.

Yeah, OK. There's still something about his plate approach that makes me more of a skeptic on him than most. He's still a good player, but I'm not sure if he's going to be that perennial .900+ OPS guy I thought he was a lock to be. But he is a good defender. My point was that I'm not sure I'd let Bruce stand in the way of getting a stud like Lee down the stretch if a reasonable solution for this year could be found in RF.

[RedsManRick]

Originally Posted by Falls City Beer

Even if he's an .850 OPS rightfielder, I still trade him for Lee. Every 5th day you have Lee instead of Bailey? Goodness.

He's going to be an .850 OPS RF who plays GG defense and is 23. I certainly don't trade 4 more years of that or better replaced by (who?) for 1/2 season of Cliff Lee instead of Bailey. Cliff Lee does not make this team WS caliber. And even if he did, that's a steep, steep price to pay.

I can't believe how some people want to act like Bruce is a finished product. The guy is 3 years younger than Votto. Votto was in AAA at this age. He's only 7 months older than Mike Leake who was just drafted last year. Furthermore, Bruce is at 12% BB rate and 25% K rate. Compare that to Votto's 13%/23% in 2009 and 14%/27% this year. Bruce simply isn't a hacker. Yes, he strikes out a fair bit -- most guys who ISO north of .200 do.

[Benihana]

For Bruce, no thanks.
For Alonso, every day of the week (and then some.)

I'm starting to develop a theory through nothing other than my own suspicion. I have been complaining for a little while that there are several posters around here that tend to overvalue prospects. My theory is that these tend to be the younger posters, the guys that haven't been around to witness the infrequency with which these players often reach their potential. They probably weren't really old enough to remember the Reds in the World Series, and they definitely weren't alive for the Big Red Machine. Now, there is no way of really knowing if this is true or not, but I have a feeling that this is the case.

Those of us that remember 1990 would trade any prospect in the system other than Chapman for a chance to relive that any day of the week. Those of us that remember the disappointments of Kurt Stillwell, Tracy Jones, John Roper, Austin Kearns, Willie Greene, Kal Daniels, Van Snider, Paul Householder, etc. etc. etc. do not lament over the "risk" of trading away a Yonder Alonso, especially if/when he has nowhere to play in Cincinnati.

[Benihana]

Originally Posted by RedsManRick

He's going to be an .850 OPS RF who plays GG defense and is 23. I certainly don't trade 4 more years of that or better replaced by (who?) for 1/2 season of Cliff Lee instead of Bailey. Cliff Lee does not make this team WS caliber. And even if he did, that's a steep, steep price to pay.

I can't believe how some people want to act like Bruce is a finished product. The guy is 3 years younger than Votto. He's only 7 months older than Mike Leake.

[Captain Hook]

Originally Posted by Falls City Beer

Hey, remember all those chances the Reds have had over the last fifteen years to make it to the postseason?

Yeah, me neither.

If you can get Lee, you search for the dotted line to sign.

So at all cost win now?

I'm really fine with trading any prospect but there are a few that I'd like to get something in return that wouldn't skip town for the Yankees once the season ends.

While I've never voiced my opinion much on the matter I'm in the camp, that the Reds shouldn't go out of their way to get a fly ball pitcher.I pretty sure that Lee has that reputation.

[Falls City Beer]

Originally Posted by RedsManRick

He's going to be an .850 OPS RF who plays GG defense and is 23. I certainly don't trade 4 more years of that or better replaced by (who?) for 1/2 season of Cliff Lee instead of Bailey. Cliff Lee does not make this team WS caliber. And even if he did, that's a steep, steep price to pay.

I can't believe how some people want to act like Bruce is a finished product. The guy is 3 years younger than Votto. He's only 7 months older than Mike Leake.

I'm saying I don't care if he isn't a finished product. Lee makes the Reds a lot closer to a WS contender than Bruce.

Put it this way: without Lee and with Bruce, then the Reds are certainly not a WS contender this year--or next year, or the year after that. Who knows when they will be? WS contention isn't currently inside this organization. Maybe they draft a Lincecum and get over that hump in the meantime, but I doubt it.

[edabbs44]

Originally Posted by Falls City Beer

I'm saying I don't care if he isn't a finished product. Lee makes the Reds a lot closer to a WS contender than Bruce.

Put it this way: without Lee and with Bruce, then the Reds are certainly not a WS contender this year--or next year, or the year after that. Who knows when they will be? WS contention isn't currently inside this organization. Maybe they draft a Lincecum and get over that hump in the meantime, but I doubt it.

If the price for CC was LaPorta, I can't see Lee costing Jay Bruce.

[Falls City Beer]

Originally Posted by edabbs44

If the price for CC was LaPorta, I can't see Lee costing Jay Bruce.

It may not. And you certainly don't overpay if you don't have to. But I was stating the highest asking price.