Cliff Lee

[alloverjr]

Are Haren and/or Drew available? If so I wouldn't waste my time bidding up Lee if that means the price ultimately goes up for Haren. Although for my money I'd go after a shortstop as hard as starting pitching, but I would look to strengthen the pen.

[Caveat Emperor]

Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine

Scott Rolen?

Toché, OBM.

I had horrid memories of Gary Majewski, Shawn Estes, Brian Mohler and Ryan Dempster in my head, and I overlooked one of the key components to the current roster.

[TheNext44]

Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor

Maybe I'm just cynical, but I've seen midseason deal after midsesason deal blow up in the face of the Cincinnati Reds. I honestly cannot remember the last time the team added a player who did anything remotely close to what the team needed / wanted them to do. It seems like these things always backfire for this franchise.

Am I the only one who expects Lee, if he were to come to Cincinnati, to immediately become ineffective and post an over-4.00 ERA the rest of the way? It just seems that's how this story would end.

I'm not convinced that Lee will be as great as people are expecting.

But the Reds really haven't been in this situation in the last ten years. The last time they truly were in contention was 1999. That year they got Juan Guzman for B.J. Ryan, and Guzman was very effective for the Reds down the stretch. Sure, they kinda were in contention a few times, but they were more than a few players away from really contending. I think it was more that the teams just weren't that good, than the trade didn't work out, or at least some of both.

I think this year the Reds are actually a better team than 1999, and one key player can make them into nit just contendere, but favorites.

[Benihana]

Originally Posted by alloverjr

Are Haren and/or Drew available? If so I wouldn't waste my time bidding up Lee if that means the price ultimately goes up for Haren. Although for my money I'd go after a shortstop as hard as starting pitching, but I would look to strengthen the pen.

Reportedly.

I'd offer Bailey, Wood, Alonso and Cozart for Haren and Drew. Makes us much better for this year and still better for the future.

[kbrake]

Not sure how people are worried about how Lee would hold up in GABP but think Haren is a good idea...I just don't get it.

[Cedric]

Originally Posted by kbrake

Not sure how people are worried about how Lee would hold up in GABP but think Haren is a good idea...I just don't get it.

People like thinking outside the box and not exactly rationally. What's fun for them in agreeing with the obvious that Lee is light years better than Dan Haren?

[nemesis]

Haren is my first choice. I've said it in other posts, Price was his pitching coach thru his 2 best years. Do not underrate that connection and what it could do for Haren.

The absolute best packages I would do for Lee is:

Alonso, Francisco and Boxberger

Alonso, Francisco, Sappelt and Del Rosario

Alonso and Bailey (include Francisco for League)

Alonso, Valakia and Maloney

Any conversation including Wood, Joseph or Mez ends the discussion.

Lee and Wood being on the same staff could benefit Wood tremendously. They already are offseason workout partners. If just a little of Lee rubs off, Wood could be as good as a #2 or #3.

Take your pick Seattle.


Haren and Drew I'd give up more.

Start with Bailey, Alonso and Sulbaran

1 of Francisco, Heisey, Cozart or Frazier

1 of Del Rosario, Fisher, Valiquette, Smith or Ondrusek

[guttle11]

I wouldn't include Ondrusek in a trade unless a legit bullpen guy also makes his way to Cincy in that trade or soon after. Logan has been a real bright spot since coming back up.

[VR]

Just get him. I don't care about the details.

[nemesis]

Originally Posted by VR

Just get him. I don't care about the details.

The details do matter though. There is a limit on what he is worth to the teams future. The Reds have to be careful of what pieces they give up to not mortgage the future for a 18 game rental.

[OnBaseMachine]

Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor

Toché, OBM.

I had horrid memories of Gary Majewski, Shawn Estes, Brian Mohler and Ryan Dempster in my head, and I overlooked one of the key components to the current roster.

I understand your skepticism, it seems like most things have gone wrong for the Reds the past 10 years. But in this case, I think Cliff Lee is a much, much safer bet than Estes or Moehler. Those guys were back of the rotation starters. Cliff Lee is a legit ace, and arguably the best starting pitcher in baseball right now. IMO, Cliff Lee makes this team a legitimate World Series contender.

[TheNext44]

Originally Posted by Cedric

People like thinking outside the box and not exactly rationally. What's fun for them in agreeing with the obvious that Lee is light years better than Dan Haren?

I could actually argue that Haren is better than Lee.

The last three years:

Haren

xFIP 3.25
WHIP 1.117
K/9 8.7
GB/FB 1.16

Lee

xFIP 3.50
WHIP 1.135
K/9 7.1
GB/FB 1.00

This year Lee has been better, but some of that is due to his pitching in Safco, as his xFIP indicates. He is actually more of a flyball pitcher than Haren, which is why some have concern over how good he will be in GABP.

Add in that Haren is under control for an extra year, and it's really hard to defend that Lee is light years better than Haren, if he is better at all.

[fearofpopvol1]

They want Francisco? Sign me up! I wouldn't think twice about trading Alonso and Francisco to the M's for Lee. If they want Wood too, I think the M's have to send something else back to us. However, I would probably move forward with that.

As long as they aren't parting with Chapman, Mesocaro and Y. Rodriguez, I'll be happy.

[*BaseClogger*]

Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor

Maybe I'm just cynical, but I've seen midseason deal after midsesason deal blow up in the face of the Cincinnati Reds. I honestly cannot remember the last time the team added a player who did anything remotely close to what the team needed / wanted them to do. It seems like these things always backfire for this franchise.

It's been 11 years:

Juan Guzman
77.1 IP, 3.03 ERA

[KoryMac5]

Originally Posted by kbrake

Not sure how people are worried about how Lee would hold up in GABP but think Haren is a good idea...I just don't get it.

Your giving up prospects for Lee for basically two months. Where as with Haren and Drew you have them under team control for a little longer. If I am going to be paying a King's ransome for a difference maker I would at least want to see the player(s) perform for a full season in Red.