without Scott Rolen

[Dale4Saul2Red0]

To assume Rolen did roids with no real evidence is very lame. The whole everyone is doing it bit doesn't work. There was a steroids era but there were still people out there who had a choice and chose not to do them based on principle alone. Not everyone in the MLB was on steroids during that era. That's the worst part about playing in the steroids era, the guys who didn't cheat always have to deal with the fact they'll probably be accused one time or another because they played in that time.

Just don't assume one of our own actually did roids though like that, not cool.

[Girevik]

Originally Posted by Hondo

Greinke is available...

Where did you see this? The only thing I've ever seen about Greinke going somewhere is fan speculation because KC will be "sellers". While he's one guy I'd put together a package of prospects for, I'd be shocked if KC would trade away their one star while he's still cheap and I have yet to hear a report from a baseball guy that he could be had.

[gedred69]

Originally Posted by ian_madden

Without Scott Rolen, there is a lot of pressure on unproven players like Gomes, Hannigan, Bruce, and Stubbs. With Rolen in the lineup, they couldn't pitch around Votto, now I pitch around him and make Gomes beat me. I pitch to Bruce for sure, who will bat in the 5th spot a lot more. Without Rolen we are an average team with holes.

Gut check time.

Accurate post. Without Rolen this team is just, +.500 When he is in the line-up everybody gets pitched to differently, and they all hit much better. Too bad Phillips has to un-naturally hit 1st, when what I believe are the "Big Three" batted 2 through 4, (Phillips-Votto-Rolen) they racked up the runs, stats, and consequently, wins. That order nearly made a star out of Gomes.

[sabometrics]

Originally Posted by Girevik

Where did you see this? The only thing I've ever seen about Greinke going somewhere is fan speculation because KC will be "sellers". While he's one guy I'd put together a package of prospects for, I'd be shocked if KC would trade away their one star while he's still cheap and I have yet to hear a report from a baseball guy that he could be had.

There was a report that said the Royals will listen to offers for just about anyone iirc, but that hardly means he's available in the same way Haren or Oswalt are right now.

[Hondo]

Originally Posted by Girevik

Where did you see this? The only thing I've ever seen about Greinke going somewhere is fan speculation because KC will be "sellers". While he's one guy I'd put together a package of prospects for, I'd be shocked if KC would trade away their one star while he's still cheap and I have yet to hear a report from a baseball guy that he could be had.

It was on ESPN Insider on the Trade Rumors section...

Also, KC wants loose of paying Jose Guillen...

While I despise Jose Guillen...

WHat if the Reds took on Guillen and the Rest of his Salary to get Greinke while giving up Wood, Alonso, Joseph, and some other prospects...

KC wants to trade Guillen, is looking to improve at Multiple Positions by trading Greinke, The Reds have a chance at Post Season and Greinke is young, under contract and the type of pitcher to build around, and the Reds could use a Right Handed Power Hitter... Plus Jose Guillen is in Walk Year, and the team could get picks when he signs elsewhere...

Plus he is going to try and hit very good for a new contract...

Dang Good ideas...

[ian_madden]

Originally Posted by RedsFanInBama

So what percentage would you put on it? 90%? I think most guys at the big league level have the desire to be the best.

90% is very high. I can't give a percentage because you have those natural talents that never did steroids, or ever needed to, ie. Griffey. But I do believe that it was much higher than the 1% that MLb tried to say was doing steroids. Then you have the players that were just happy to be there, ie. the Pittsburgh Pirates. Look at those teams, no one is accusing any of those guys of doing steroids because there is no pressure to perform there. These are the types of players that are "just happy to be there, and making a paycheck."

[ian_madden]

Originally Posted by Hondo

It was on ESPN Insider on the Trade Rumors section...

Also, KC wants loose of paying Jose Guillen...

While I despise Jose Guillen...

WHat if the Reds took on Guillen and the Rest of his Salary to get Greinke while giving up Wood, Alonso, Joseph, and some other prospects...

KC wants to trade Guillen, is looking to improve at Multiple Positions by trading Greinke, The Reds have a chance at Post Season and Greinke is young, under contract and the type of pitcher to build around, and the Reds could use a Right Handed Power Hitter... Plus Jose Guillen is in Walk Year, and the team could get picks when he signs elsewhere...

Plus he is going to try and hit very good for a new contract...

Dang Good ideas...

I don't want Guillen, even if it is just for 1 year. Greinke is a Freak, if we have to give up Alonso, Francisco, and 1 of our good young pitchers, not named Wood, Leake, or Chapman so be it.

[Razzle]

Originally Posted by ian_madden

90% is very high. I can't give a percentage because you have those natural talents that never did steroids, or ever needed to, ie. Griffey. But I do believe that it was much higher than the 1% that MLb tried to say was doing steroids. Then you have the players that were just happy to be there, ie. the Pittsburgh Pirates. Look at those teams, no one is accusing any of those guys of doing steroids because there is no pressure to perform there. These are the types of players that are "just happy to be there, and making a paycheck."

Of course they are happy to be there, but they also want to STAY there. Tons of stars did roids, but the guys that I'd be willing to bet had a higher rate of roid usage would be the fringe major leaguers. Those guy's I'd imagine took them to try and keep their jobs/standards of living. Guys like Randy Valarde, Marvin Benard, etc that you don't hear as much about because they aren't big enough names to shock you. Just my opinion on the matter. All that said, I want to believe Scotty didn't do roids and I honestly think he never did. I wouldn't be completely shocked, but definitely disheartened to see a guy that embodies what baseball should be get outted.

[benchpress]

Originally Posted by ian_madden

I don't think we need to trade away young talent for a rental player. I think we should stand pat and play through, unless Rolen is down for an extended period of time.

I like our young rotation next year. I don't think we need an Ace, I think he is here, just hasn't matured yet.

Agreed!

[RedsLvr]

We've managed a 5-3 record thus far in his absence.

[1990REDS]

Originally Posted by Razzle

Of course they are happy to be there, but they also want to STAY there. Tons of stars did roids, but the guys that I'd be willing to bet had a higher rate of roid usage would be the fringe major leaguers. Those guy's I'd imagine took them to try and keep their jobs/standards of living. Guys like Randy Valarde, Marvin Benard, etc that you don't hear as much about because they aren't big enough names to shock you. Just my opinion on the matter. All that said, I want to believe Scotty didn't do roids and I honestly think he never did. I wouldn't be completely shocked, but definitely disheartened to see a guy that embodies what baseball should be get outted.

you forgot to add gary matthews jr. to that list. he turned 1 good season into about 50 million dollars.

[ian_madden]

Going into the All Star Break, many were considering Votto a league MVP candidate. But I didn't think he was the MVP on this team. If Votto can put this team on his back, can carry them in Rolen's absence, make the playoffs, I'm not sure you can argue, against Votto as the league MVP.

[Orodle]

If hes says hes ready tomorrow, give him another day of rest and start him day after tomorrow

[lidspinner]

Originally Posted by ian_madden

I don't want Guillen, even if it is just for 1 year. Greinke is a Freak, if we have to give up Alonso, Francisco, and 1 of our good young pitchers, not named Wood, Leake, or Chapman so be it.

I would give up Yonder, Bailey, and Francisco....or maybe swap Bailey and Wood....we are going to have to give up someone with talent to get Zack, we are not going to be able to trade Maloney for ZG....just not happening unless Votto is included. ZG is one of the best young pitchers in the game, in order to get him, we are going to have to part with someone of equal value.