Better shortstop Dave Concepcion or Ozzie Smith?

[redlegs2370]

Originally Posted by Yadi for Mayor

It's really not even close

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx...on=SS#fielding

Ozzie over 18 years is a 70 war player

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx...94&position=SS

Concepcion is a 45 war player.

In particular notice the difference between Runs above average UZR, Ozzie 239, Concepcion 50.

WAR is overrated. What about post season? When the money was on the line? Concepcion was nearly a .300 hitter and Smith in the low .200's. I'll take clutch performance anytime.

[GIDP]

Ozzie. I didnt see Davey at all and barely remember Ozzie.

Larkin > Both combined though.

[bshall2105]

I'm surprised some people aren't arguing for Paul Janish being better than both.

[Yadi for Mayor]

Originally Posted by redlegs2370

WAR is overrated. What about post season? When the money was on the line? Concepcion was nearly a .300 hitter and Smith in the low .200's. I'll take clutch performance anytime.

I personally don't believe in players being "clutch". There are some players who choke in pressure situations and there are many money who just have skewed numbers because of a small sample size.

However if you want to believe in things like players being clutch and overvaluing small sample sizes, Ozzie Smith's famous "go crazy folks" homerun in the 1985 NLCS was pretty clutch.

[757690]

I watched both play and even though as a Reds fan, I love Concepcion, I have to say that overall, Ozzie was a better shortstop. Davey was a bit better offensively, not just because he was clutch, but Ozzie was a much better fielder.

If UZR was around back then, Ozzie would have easily been a +35-50 fielder some years. I am not exaggerating. He was that good. He made plays I have yet to see any other SS make, and he did it on a regular basis.

Davey was always underrated defensively, since he was thought of as an offensive minded SS, and easily was one of the best of his ERA. But he was great, while Ozzie was other worldly. Think the Pujols of defense.

[10xWSChamps]

Originally Posted by couch_manager

Dave's lack of popularity was because he didn't play for the Cardinals?

Ozzie's popularity was mostly due to his backflips.

I'm not trying to brag or anything, I'm just saying the Cardinals were a more popular team and got more national media exposure.. that was even more important back then then it is these days with the internet, ESPN and the MLB network where you can see more then just the select national coverage.

[mckbearcat48]

Larkin was the man....I really enjoyed watching him play.

[Griffey012]

Originally Posted by bshall2105

I'm surprised some people aren't arguing for Paul Janish being better than both.

Hilarious!

[Hey Meat]

Didn't Dave win 2 World Series?

[Hey Meat]

Originally Posted by GIDP

Ozzie. I didnt see Davey at all and barely remember Ozzie.

Larkin > Both combined though.

I agree. Larkin was great. Not sure if he was better than both the Wiz and Davey.

[GIDP]

Originally Posted by Hey Meat

I agree. Larkin was great. Not sure if he was better than both the Wiz and Davey.

obviously not combined but i was making a point

[Dawg]

Larkin had a better arm than Ozzie, but I think Ozzie had better range.
Larkin was also much better with the bat.

[mikemo14]

I would take Davey anyday over Ozzie. Davey was overshadowed by Hall of Famers but was a crucial part of that 70-80s teams. He was not nearly as flashy as Ozzie but his range was incredible and he seldom needed to dive for a ball. His ability to leap and grab line drives was incredible as well. Hard to believe he is not a hal of famer.

[couch_manager]

Originally Posted by 10xWSChamps

I'm not trying to brag or anything, I'm just saying the Cardinals were a more popular team and got more national media exposure.. that was even more important back then then it is these days with the internet, ESPN and the MLB network where you can see more then just the select national coverage.

Have you heard of the Big Red Machine, the team that Davey played on? They got plenty of media attention during the '70's. Is there an equivalent Cardinals team that generated that much buzz when Ozzie played? Sorry, I'm sure you'd like to rewrite history, but the Cardinals weren't the team of the '80's.

[10xWSChamps]

This probably won't be a popular opinion, but I think you have to include Derek Jeter in the discussion for best ever. Easily the best bat and he's an above average defensive SS, although not even close to being even top 10 defensively. But he's still been one of the better gloves in the league.

If we're talking about clutch, Jeter has that too. The guy is also a very likable Yankee, and that may be the greatest achievement of his whole career