Week 3: Bengals at the Panthers

[RichRed]

Originally Posted by chicoruiz

Okay, here's my question: Baseball teams, with a coaching staff of 5 or 6, have a "bench coach" to help the manager make in-game strategic decisions. Why is it that NFL teams, with staffs three times that big, can't have somebody standing next to the head coach to do the same thing? I can think of any number of NFL coaches who could profit by having someone like that.

I think some of them do. I seem to remember Herm Edwards had his tight ends coach doubling as his clock management guy when he coached the Jets. Lord knows Herm needed the help.

[Hoosier Red]

Originally Posted by chicoruiz

Okay, here's my question: Baseball teams, with a coaching staff of 5 or 6, have a "bench coach" to help the manager make in-game strategic decisions. Why is it that NFL teams, with staffs three times that big, can't have somebody standing next to the head coach to do the same thing? I can think of any number of NFL coaches who could profit by having someone like that.

I think one of the biggest problems is that coaching staffs are too big. Too many guys down on the field or up in the press box and the coaches get too much information.
If I'm the head coach, in the last two minutes, I'm calling all the plays. I have a limited set of plays at my disposal, the QB knows what the last two minute plays are, but I'm calling the play. No overrule of the OC, no input from anyone, in fact at that point no one talks but me.
It's my call.

Failing that, I have one coach who is the clock management guru and one guy who is the responsible for go for it/don't go for it. And maybe even a different guy responsible for go for 2/kick the PAT.

The way it seems to be now is the worst of both worlds, the coach is responsible for processing every single bit of information and is responsible for 100 other things he can't possibly control and he has to keep the clock and two point conversion and 4th down percentages straight? Too many decisions, too much information and too much noise to make the correct decisions.

[Redhook]

Originally Posted by bucksfan2

Its funny because you contradict yourself in this. Carson is playing awful right now but its Brat's fault? If cornfused! I thought Carson would be a second tier QB this season. Not one of the best like Brady, Manning, Rivers, etc, but a guy who is good enough to not hurt the team. IMO in the NFL there are only a handful of QB's that are that much better than the competition. IMO Carson was a guy that wasn't going to kill you but also a guy who wasn't elite. So far this season he has looked beyond awful. He has as many weapons as he has ever had around him, but he can't manage to do much if anything with the offense. IMO its Carson and not Brat.

I didn't contradict myself. They both stunk. Carson was worse, but IMO, it's up to Bratkowski to adjust to in-game situations. He failed to do so properly yesterday by continuing to allow Carson to fling the ball downfield when he clearly had no clue where the ball was going. Brat needed to stop calling those plays.

How is that bad game management by Marvin? He didn't false start, thats one the QB and OLine. He didn't throw a pass 5 yards short of the goal line, thats one the QB. He didn't fail to get to the line, thats on Rolland. I don't think that last series had anything to do with Marvin, had more to do with the players on the field.

It was a mess by everyone, I agree. I think Marvin needs to have better control of his players in tight situations like that. I'm so upset because this is not the first, and won't be the last, time stuff like that has happened to this team under his watch. It happens too often with him and clock management.

I was telling my friends I thought they should've kicked a FG before the last play because of the risk/reward factor. I didn't think they had a shot at a TD from the 10 and with only 15 seconds left there wasn't much time. Take the 3 points and go to the half.

[Sea Ray]

Marvin's got plenty of help in clock management. That's why he's wearing headphones.

This wasn't a problem Marvin could fix from the sidelines. This was on Palmer and his O-lineman who jumped off sides and then was slow to get up after the play was run. Palmer, seeing that, should have sent his WRs out instead of clocking the ball. Of course he shouldn't have thrown in to the 5 yd line either

[bucksfan2]

Originally Posted by Redhook

I didn't contradict myself. They both stunk. Carson was worse, but IMO, it's up to Bratkowski to adjust to in-game situations. He failed to do so properly yesterday by continuing to allow Carson to fling the ball downfield when he clearly had no clue where the ball was going. Brat needed to stop calling those plays.

I guess my issue is Brat seems to take a ton of heat by many Bengals fans. He went from being an offensive wiz in 5 years ago to a guy who doesn't know what he is doing. I think most of the problems as of late have to do with Carson. You can adjust all you want, but when the QB keeps sticking it on the defenders hands (apparently he would have had 6 int's if the Panthers hadn't dropped them) it doesn't matter what kinds of plays you call. Also you have to consider the leeway that Carson has in changing play calls.

It was a mess by everyone, I agree. I think Marvin needs to have better control of his players in tight situations like that. I'm so upset because this is not the first, and won't be the last, time stuff like that has happened to this team under his watch. It happens too often with him and clock management.

Its not the first and won't be the last. IMO that falls back on the leadership and more than anything else the QB. How can the entire line be on a different snap count than the QB and the C? How can an All Pro WR and his QB be on different pages when they have played so many games together? How can delay of games and false starts continually happen with this QB?

IMO you can blame Marvin for a lot of poor clock management. I also think that there is a huge issue with Carson and getting the play off on time. Had they not had to call TO in order to save a delay of game penalty early in the 1st half they would have had an extra TO in their pocket.

I was telling my friends I thought they should've kicked a FG before the last play because of the risk/reward factor. I didn't think they had a shot at a TD from the 10 and with only 15 seconds left there wasn't much time. Take the 3 points and go to the half.

They had just used a time out because of the false start. Put Jerome freakin Simpson in or isolate TO on a smaller CB and throw the fade route. Its a tired passing play but its a one or two step drop and the balls away. It allows a WR who is used to catching TD's to catch one. It would have been a smart play call but then again that is more on Carson and Brat than it is on Marvin. And I wonder what option Gresham was in that pattern? Was he the 3rd or 4th option? Why throw the ball to him in that situation. The last 15 seconds was a comedy of errors. IMO that relies on the leader of the offense.

[mlh1981]

Sure, it's nice to get a win, and the team can continue to do this sort of thing and probably beat the Browns and Bucs, but sooner or later, Palmer and co. will have to step up, once the opposition starts getting tougher.

Kudos to the defense. Rey Maualuga and Keith Rivers have been getting killed on other fan sites I visit, but they really stepped it up yesterday, in particular.

[Boss-Hog]

Originally Posted by bucksfan2

I guess my issue is Brat seems to take a ton of heat by many Bengals fans. He went from being an offensive wiz in 5 years ago to a guy who doesn't know what he is doing.

Honestly, I've never heard anyone calling Bratkowski an offense wiz (or anything similar) - even in 2005. Look at that team offensively: you had an excellent offensive line, two effective RB's with vastly different skillsets, two Pro Bowl wide receivers in their prime, a third WR that could go vertical on anyone, more than capable fourth and fifth wide outs and a QB that had his best season ever that year. How much credit does Bratkowski really deserve for finishing sixth in the NFL with that personnel?

[Redsfaithful]

Originally Posted by KoryMac5

Cleveland is looking like a really tough game next week. O needs to get on track or we find ourselves 2-2.

What makes you think Jake Delhomme or Wallace are going to be able to score on the Bengals D?

Replacing Roland with Smith I think would be big right now. Part of me wonders why they can't move Bobbie Williams to RT and play Smith inside, it seems to me that a vet like Williams could do it and you'd be upgrading the line overall. Or just play Smith at RT and take your chances, I don't honestly care. Dennis Roland reminds me a lot of Dan Coats last year, he's probably one of the worst players in the NFL.

[CTA513]

Originally Posted by Redsfaithful

What makes you think Jake Delhomme or Wallace are going to be able to score on the Bengals D?

Replacing Roland with Smith I think would be big right now. Part of me wonders why they can't move Bobbie Williams to RT and play Smith inside, it seems to me that a vet like Williams could do it and you'd be upgrading the line overall. Or just play Smith at RT and take your chances, I don't honestly care. Dennis Roland reminds me a lot of Dan Coats last year, he's probably one of the worst players in the NFL.

Guard or center is about the only position Williams can play.
He looks even bigger than Smith and doesn't have the mobility that you need at tackle.

[bucksfan2]

Originally Posted by Boss-Hog

Honestly, I've never heard anyone calling Bratkowski an offense wiz (or anything similar) - even in 2005. Look at that team offensively: you had an excellent offensive line, two effective RB's with vastly different skillsets, two Pro Bowl wide receivers in their prime, a third WR that could go vertical on anyone, more than capable fourth and fifth wide outs and a QB that had his best season ever that year. How much credit does Bratkowski really deserve for finishing sixth in the NFL with that personnel?

If my memory serves me correct the Bengals were worried about losing Brat because he had become a hot candidate for a head coaching job. Lets not forget that he had the offense clicking for a couple of years before it blew up in 2005.

Im not really backing the guy because I do think a change does need to happen, but there has been a lot of blamed put on him when to me the offense just hasn't been able to execute. The amount of delay of games penalties and wasted TO's is unacceptable at a high school football level and that falls back on the QB. Its my understanding that the communication with the QB is cut off around the 20-25 second mark on the play clock. Its Carson's job to get the play off in time.

Its strictly my opinion but this city and media has been way too easy with Carson. They see him as the pretty boy All-American with the laser arm. I was listening to a little Bengals line and Lap was talking about how TO and Chad's reality TV show was a reason that Chad and Carson were not on the same page. It seemed odd to me because Chad has had one poor season in his entire career as a Bengal. Chad is a boarder line HOF WR who has been great as a Bengal. I don't think the blame really lies much with him and think it lies more with Carson's happy feet and being a little scared in the pocket.

[Boss-Hog]

Originally Posted by bucksfan2

If my memory serves me correct the Bengals were worried about losing Brat because he had become a hot candidate for a head coaching job. Lets not forget that he had the offense clicking for a couple of years before it blew up in 2005.

Im not really backing the guy because I do think a change does need to happen, but there has been a lot of blamed put on him when to me the offense just hasn't been able to execute. The amount of delay of games penalties and wasted TO's is unacceptable at a high school football level and that falls back on the QB. Its my understanding that the communication with the QB is cut off around the 20-25 second mark on the play clock. Its Carson's job to get the play off in time.

Its strictly my opinion but this city and media has been way too easy with Carson. They see him as the pretty boy All-American with the laser arm. I was listening to a little Bengals line and Lap was talking about how TO and Chad's reality TV show was a reason that Chad and Carson were not on the same page. It seemed odd to me because Chad has had one poor season in his entire career as a Bengal. Chad is a boarder line HOF WR who has been great as a Bengal. I don't think the blame really lies much with him and think it lies more with Carson's happy feet and being a little scared in the pocket.

Not trying to be argumentative, but I honestly do not ever remember hearing him even mentioned as a possible head coaching candidate anywhere in the NFL. In fact, that was going to be one of the reasons I mentioned that he's extremely replaceable - lack of interest around the league for head coaching positions. To me, he's extremely uncreative, unable to make adjustments to teams taking away his best players by often doubling them and the identity most associated with his offenses over the past two seasons has been undisciplined via penalties. He's far from the only current problem or maybe not even the biggest problem but I certainly do not feel he's part of the solution, either.

As far as your other point, as much as it pains me to say it right now given how he good he was from 2005-2007, I do agree with you that Carson is a major liability right now and I've never been able to say that before. I don't buy that he all the sudden lost it beginning last year as some have speculated, so I wonder how much, if at all, the elbow that he never got surgically repaired affects him. Whether it's a coincidence or not, I don't know, but I do know that he's not played anywhere near the level he was at before the injury.

[WMR]

Agree with everything you've typed in regards to Brat, BH.

I guess Mr. Brown only has enough money for one elite coordinator.

Would love to see a Weis or a Martz get to try their hand at orchestrating the Bengals offense (a truly elite-type offensive mind).

[Sea Ray]

Originally Posted by Boss-Hog

Not trying to be argumentative, but I honestly do not ever remember hearing him even mentioned as a possible head coaching candidate anywhere in the NFL.

Sure he was mentioned. This site mentioned him as an 8:1 chance (tied for #2) of becoming the Detroit Lions head coach after 2005:


http://www.docsports.com/lions-head-coach.html

[Todd Gack]

Originally Posted by Sea Ray

That end of the half gaffe is on Carson too.He can't throw it there and if he does he has to get everyone up. If he cant then he has to drop back and throw it. Terrible, terrible first half for Carson

I'd like to focus on the play before the half. IMO, it's about 95% all on Carson because if you watch the replay, there is absolutely not much urgency to get another play off. It's as if everyone's taking their grand ole time getting to the line. That is the QB's job. Even with Roland and his lard butt 10 yards behind field, the play could've easily been spiked sooner had there been any type of urgency from the QB.

[WMR]

Nice obscure Seinfeld reference.