Fight revisited

[OnBaseMachine]

Originally Posted by jojo

Phillips caused the brawl. Without his antics, nothing happens and maybe a ball game erupts.

Phillips and Molina caused the benches to clear. Nothing happened other than some jawing back and forth. Carpenter caused the actual fight. Without his antics, everyone goes back to the dugout without any punches thrown.

[mbgrayson]

There is really no question that Carpenter at least threw gas on the fire last August by verbally escalating the situation. Words have consequences, and it always amazes me that when people provoke a fight, that they think they have the right to whine about getting hurt.

Baseball brawls, or brawls of any sort, can easily cascade out of control. If I were the Commisioner (which everyone should be glad I'm not...) I would have hammered those who did what Carpenter did to keep things going as much or more than Cueto or Phillips or Baker.

But we are beating a dead horse here....aren't we?

[jojo]

Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine

Phillips and Molina caused the benches to clear. Nothing happened other than some jawing back and forth. Carpenter caused the actual fight. Without his antics, everyone goes back to the dugout without any punches thrown.

Maybe if Dusty doen't jaw at Carpenter he jaws at another Cardinal and then the same thing starts....

Without a doubt though if Phillips doesn't get tap happy, nothing happens.

If Carpenter is guilty of something, Phillips is more guilty.

[OnBaseMachine]

Not even going to get into this with you. I think it's pretty clear that Carpenter escalated the whole thing.

[jojo]

Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine

Not even going to get into this with you. I think it's pretty clear that Carpenter escalated the whole thing.

It's crystal clear that there is nothing to escalate without Phillips starting something. It's kinda that simple and while its understandable that listening to Carpenter continue to talk about his kids every time Phillips tweets tweaks Reds fans, he does it because he has the higher ground like it or not.

[hebroncougar]

Originally Posted by jojo

It's crystal clear that there is nothing to escalate without Phillips starting something. It's kinda that simple and while its understandable that listening to Carpenter continue to talk about his kids every time Phillips tweets tweaks Reds fans, he does it because he has the higher ground like it or not.

Crystal clear seems to have different definitions to different people. Move on.

[jojo]

Originally Posted by hebroncougar

Crystal clear seems to have different definitions to different people. Move on.

Does anything happen if Phillips was getting a day off? Nope.

[hebroncougar]

Originally Posted by jojo

Does anything happen if Phillips was getting a day off? Nope.

Does the "brawl" happen if Carpenter keeps his mouth shut? Nope.

[Matt700wlw]

Carpenter is just proving Phillips' point again....he's still crying about it.

[jojo]

Originally Posted by hebroncougar

Does the "brawl" happen if Carpenter keeps his mouth shut? Nope.

That may or may not be true but there is not fire if there wasn't gas already poured.

[757690]

Originally Posted by jojo

It's crystal clear that there is nothing to escalate without Phillips starting something. It's kinda that simple and while its understandable that listening to Carpenter continue to talk about his kids every time Phillips tweets tweaks Reds fans, he does it because he has the higher ground like it or not.

Well none of this would have started if Brandon's mom never his dad. Really the same logic you are using. You can also use that logic to say that Cueto never would have kicked LaRue in the head had Carpenter not said what he said to Dusty.

Regardless of who started it, however everyone got to that point, Carpenter didn't need to say whatever he said to Dusty, and that is what caused all the violence. Up until then, it was just the standard jawing at each other, and most players were calmed down.

[jojo]

Originally Posted by 757690

Well none of this would have started if Brandon's mom never his dad. Really the same logic you are using

Hardly. This is not a flap of a butterfly wing in Canada causing an earthquake in South America.....There would be no jawing if Phillips used his bat the way it was intended.....to hit baseballs instead of catchers. There is a clear chain of cause and effect and it's surreal to hear people denying that while focusing so much vitriol and horse beating on a downstream event.

[Blitz Dorsey]

Originally Posted by Hoosier Red

One thing that's important to point out, whether or not Cueto should have put himself in that position has no bearing on what he should do when he's pinned against a wall.

If I've heard the argument once I've heard it 100 times. "Cueto shouldn't kick" then after a counter explaining he didn't have much in the way of options, "Yeah well he never should have put himself in that position."

While you can make either argument, whether or not he should have avoided being at the back of the scrum, he didn't. Once he was faced with that situation kicking was truly self defense.


I've pointed out that in my opinion, pretty much everything was a set of unfortunate circumstances.

1) Cueto found himself pinned up against the wall, doesn't really kick so much as pulls his legs up to protect himself and give himself some leverage.

2) Cueto is pushing off on Carpenter's back which probably doesn't feel good, but also probably isn't going to end anyone's career. However, in the commotion, Jason Larue sees Johnny Cueto hurting HIS pitcher.

3) Larue does what every good teammate does, he goes after Cueto.
4) Cueto does what any reasonable person does when confronted with a guy bigger, heavier, stronger guy wildly chasing after him, he kicks to stay away.
5) In this commotion, Gomes does what all good teammates do and goes after the guy "attacking" HIS pitcher.

6) Really can't we just accept that this is Carpenter's fault and move on?

Ha! Now that is something I can explain to my son.

[757690]

Originally Posted by jojo

Hardly. This is not a flap of a butterfly wing in Canada causing an earthquake in South America.....There would be no jawing if Phillips used his bat the way it was intended.....to hit baseballs instead of catchers. There is a clear chain of cause and effect and it's surreal to hear people denying that while focusing so much vitriol and horse beating on a downstream event.

I'm not trying to clear Brandon.

My point is that Carpenter did not need to say what he said to Dusty, which clearly had the same effect as what Brandon did. it makes no difference how Carpenter got there, it's what he did when he was there.

You come up with an idea to rob a bank, and take me along to help. In the middle of the robbery, I shoot a guy in cold blood for no reason. I don't shoot the guy if you don't rob the bank, but that says nothing about the morality of my act.

[jojo]

Originally Posted by 757690

I'm not trying to clear Brandon.

My point is that Carpenter did not need to say what he said to Dusty, which clearly had the same effect as what Brandon did. it makes no difference how Carpenter got there, it's what he did when he was there.

You come up with an idea to rob a bank, and take me along to help. In the middle of the robbery, I shoot a guy in cold blood for no reason. I don't shoot the guy if you don't rob the bank, but that says nothing about the morality of my act.

I'm probably tried for murder too nonetheless....