looking ahead to 2012

[Will M]

IMO its time for the Reds management to stop deluding themselves & start planning for 2012. We have 3 weeks before the trade deadline to possibly help the team in the future. Also we need to clear some roster space and get some of the future Reds (ie Mes, Frazier, Sapplet) some playing time.

Here is what I'd like to see for 2012...

Catcher: Mes/Hanigan. move Ramon & get Mes us here by August 1rst

1B: Votto

2B: Phillips likely is brought back even though he costs a fair amount of money

SS: Cozart is auditioning now to be the starter next year. if he flops we will have to go get somebody

3B: Rolen is still under contract. I'd get Frazier up here & start getting him some ABs. If he looks good we could pencil him in for 2012. When Rolen can go Frazier can fill in at other spots.

LF: Sappelt. get him up here in August after the trade deadline

CF: Stubbs

RF: Bruce

Bench: Hanigan/Mes, backup SS, Frazier/Rolen, Cairo, Heisey, probably try to get a LH hitter in there somewhere

SP: lots of question marks.
1) Cueto
2) Bailey if healthy
3) Leake
4) Arroyo likely isn't tradable & does eat innings when healthy
5) Wood I suspect
6) I'd prefer Chapman in the mix here and not in the pen

RP: Masset, Bray, Ondrusek, Lecure, etc

Trade bait:
1) Ramon
2) Cordero if anyone wants him
3) Gomes if anyone wants him
4) Volquez
5) Alonso (blocked & likely can't play LF)
6) Grandal (blocked)
7) Francisco (I prefer Frazier as 3B/utility)

what to try and acquire via a trade?
1) first we need to see how Cozart, Frazier & Sappelt do against some big league pitching. then we'll have a better idea of what they might do in 2012
2) upgrade(s) in the rotation. if we have the trade chips and the money then I'd like to see at least one starter better than Cueto added to the team
3) I'd prefer a middle of the order bat either in left field replacing Sappelt or possibly in center field replacing Stubbs (with Sappelt moving to center field)

[schroomytunes]

Good Post! I'm hoping that moves can be made to improve the team in 2012, at this year's trade deadline w/o totally giving up on this season. Let's face it Philly is going to win the NL with that staff, they are too strong! So here's my realistic approach:

2012 Reds
1b-Votto
2b-Phillips, yes he deserves the increase!
ss-Cozart/ FA acquisition OMAR INFANTE
3b-Rolen/Cairo
Rf-Bruce
Cf-Stubbs/Heisey
LF- FA acquisition RYAN LUDWICK/F. Lewis
c-Hanigan/Mesoraco

Key Acqusitions:
1)Ludwick gives us the RH power bat in the 5/6 slot in the lineup allowing Rolen to bat 6/7 as his power decreases. Ludwick hits @ .260 20+hr 80rbi .800obps line in GABP.

2)Infante gives us the 2b/ss utility guy that can leadoff when needed and better overall production from a backup middle infielder allowing Cairo to backup mainly 1b/3b spelling Rolen.

Pitching Staff
-this is where it has to change!
2012 Starters
1)J.Cueto by default
2)CHAD BILLINGSLY-trade with Dodgers
3)H.Bailey
4)Mike Leake
5)Bronson Arroyo-we are stuck till he improves

Key acquisition:
1)Chad Billingsley- we trade Yonder Alonso ,Travis Wood, and Carlos Fisher for a #3 starter who helps anchor the rotation.

2012 Bullpen
Closer-Chapman
Set-up-Massett
long guy-LeCure/D.Willis?????
Loogy-Bray
Middle relief guys- Boxberger, Ondrusek,Arredondo

Key Acqisitions- none....we add Boxberger from AA to fill middle relief role and promote Chapman to closer.

Trades that could happen?
1)Ramon Hernandez to SF for prospects. they need a Catcher
2)Francisco Cordero and cash to Arz for prospects there looking for RP, Cordero would be a good 1-2 guy with Putz!

just some thoughts

[Captain Hook]

I can't believe how eager people are to give up on this season.If the Reds are four games out on August 1st there won't be a person in this world that could convince be they don't still have a good chance.Here we are heading into the AS break four games out and a good portion of RZ thinks that it's foolish for the Reds to continue playing for 2011.

Hypothetically speaking those aren't all bad ideas if the front office does decide to punt.I just think the best thing that could come of those moves would be a little playing time for some young guys in a season that the front office has given up on.Is that really worth giving up on almost half the season for?

[cincrazy]

I agree with much of what you say Will, but after watching Dontrelle's start today, I'd say he's got a better than average shot of being on the mound next year for this ballclub. And I'm ok with that. A starting rotation of Cueto, Leake, a rejuvenated Willis, along with Wood/Bailey/hopefully Arroyo catches some better luck... next year could be better.

With that being said, this year isn't over.... yet.

[MikeThierry]

It is kind of odd that one of the lone Cards fans on this board has more confidence in the Reds than some of the Reds fans do. Every team not named the Philadelphia Phillies will go through a tough stretch this season. Heck, it may happen two or three times to every team by the time the end of the season roles around. I still think the Reds are a threat in this division and I would not throw in the towel yet if I were a Reds fan. The Brewers have proven they can't take control of the division and its wide open right now. The Pirates for god sake have a chance right now to take first place. Its far too early to be thinking about next season, in my opinion.

[Joseph]

Let's face it, this division is either terrible, or beating the crud out of each other. Four teams are in the race. Hell we could have gone into the allstar break in such a jumble we'd have needed a contortionist to tell us which way was up.

I'm frustrated, I don't know how much faith I have still in the way this team is currently concocted, but anything can happen.

[cincrazy]

Originally Posted by MikeThierry

It is kind of odd that one of the lone Cards fans on this board has more confidence in the Reds than some of the Reds fans do. Every team not named the Philadelphia Phillies will go through a tough stretch this season. Heck, it may happen two or three times to every team by the time the end of the season roles around. I still think the Reds are a threat in this division and I would not throw in the towel yet if I were a Reds fan. The Brewers have proven they can't take control of the division and its wide open right now. The Pirates for god sake have a chance right now to take first place. Its far too early to be thinking about next season, in my opinion.

We are only four back, but this team has given no indication all season it's capable of going on an extended run. Yes, it has some talent. But its flaws have proven to be too much at this point. At the end of the day, the Cards still have Pujols, Holliday, Berkman, Carpenter, and Garcia to fall back on. The Brewers have Fielder, Weeks, Hart, Braun, Marcum, Greinke, Gallardo. The Reds have, Bruce, Votto, Cueto... and who? We just don't have the difference makers the other teams possess. The race isn't over. But it's an uphill climb for sure.

[MikeThierry]

Originally Posted by Joseph

Let's face it, this division is either terrible, or beating the crud out of each other. Four teams are in the race. Hell we could have gone into the allstar break in such a jumble we'd have needed a contortionist to tell us which way was up.

I'm frustrated, I don't know how much faith I have still in the way this team is currently concocted, but anything can happen.

I think every fan for every central division team is frustrated this season except for Pirates fans.

Milwaukee fans are probably going out of their mind on how inept their team plays on the road.

Cards fans are wondering when we are actually going to stop getting injured and have our starting lineup out there on the field.

I don't have to even describe the frustration of Reds fans, you all know it too well.

Cubs and Houston fans... well... I think many believe their teams are an exercise in futility right now.

[edabbs44]

Slightly early for this.

[Tony Cloninger]

Originally Posted by edabbs44

Slightly early for this.

It's never too early to be late.

[Will M]

Originally Posted by cincrazy

We are only four back, but this team has given no indication all season it's capable of going on an extended run. Yes, it has some talent. But its flaws have proven to be too much at this point. At the end of the day, the Cards still have Pujols, Holliday, Berkman, Carpenter, and Garcia to fall back on. The Brewers have Fielder, Weeks, Hart, Braun, Marcum, Greinke, Gallardo. The Reds have, Bruce, Votto, Cueto... and who? We just don't have the difference makers the other teams possess. The race isn't over. But it's an uphill climb for sure.

Thats similar to my take. The Reds are not a good team. Yes they have some talent but they have way too many holes. They also have a management that has been near comatose since the 2009-2010 off season. IMO the Cards are the team that is most likely to add talent. It wouldn't shock me at all to hear them add Hardy, a closer or another TOR/MOR arm. I can't imagine that they Brewers wouldn't add a piece since they are a bit 'all in' with Fielder gone after the season. Yet I doubt that the Reds will make any serious moves. So we are 4 back in a weak division. But we don't have the talent to win it, especially when our competition isn't going to sit on their hands. So why not turn the page & look into making deal or two now? Honestly other than Ramon the guys we are looking to deal aren't going to help us this year anyway. and Mes seems ready to replace Ramon.

lets say the team...
1) traded Ramon for a AA second baseman. called up Mes
2) dumped Coco & Gomes for a touch of salary relief (the Reds picking up most but not all of their remaining salaries). made Masset the closer. called up Frazier.
3) was able to package Wood/Volquez plus Alonso plus a spare part for a rotation upgrade. someone better than Cueto.

Is that really punting 2011? sure 2011 Ramon probably beats 2011 Mes. Gomes does crush lefties & has his uses. But its not a fire sale. its deciding that the current team and current strategy is not going to get it done. and if the team isn't willing to really add cash to the payroll now (thereby being able to acquire players without giving up as much minor league talent) then IMO middling along with the current team is a dumb strategy. its not going to win anything of significance in 2011 nor does it help for next year.

[cinreds21]

It's too early to give up on the season, seriously. The only person I think that still can be traded with playoff hopes in tact is Hernandez. Now, people on here may argue with me saying that Ramon is the heart and team of this staff and is worth more to the Reds than being traded at the moment. I guess we'll see in the next few weeks.

[MikeThierry]

IMO the Cards are the team that is most likely to add talent. It wouldn't shock me at all to hear them add Hardy, a closer or another TOR/MOR arm.

It is difficult to say what the Cards will do. I have heard rumors that the Padres are asking for someone like Carlos Martinez for Bell. Guys like Martinez and Miller are practically untouchable in the Cardinals organization right now with the Pujols contract looming. The only real trade pieces I see the Cards giving up are Zach Cox, Jon Jay, or Allen Craig. I don't know if it is likely the Cards will make a move to be honest with you.

[cincrazy]

The Cards may not make a move, but the chances of that organization making a move are far higher than the Reds doing anything. The Brewers and Cardinals are aggressive when need be. The Reds have taken passiveness to a whole new level.