Dusty Baker

[fearofpopvol1]

I thought this was very interesting. CTrent retweeted this, which I take as an endorsement that he pretty much feels how many at RZ do...

MisterRedlegs Good? Sure. He knows his clubhouse, players, but gets too rigid on roles, matchups. RT @bendeclue: Do you think [Baker's] a good manager?

[Brutus]

Originally Posted by thatcoolguy_22

Timing issue asside, this thread is necessary. A thread devoted to the pros/cons of Dusty has been missing since the afterglow of last year.

Personally, I think the manager makes little difference in the outcome of a season. There are probably hundreds of stats people can use to compare managers, but the majority will have some flaws. Comparing manager to manager is jedi vs pokemon (sample sizes with the same team, different teams, using strategies based on current roster, etc. etc.) *Sample size noted* Baker is toting a 13-21 record in one loss games. He might not need to be fired, but debate is understandable.

I don't understand why it's "necessary" to have to rail on Dusty. Don't mistake that as saying there's anything wrong with having the conversation, but you make it out to be a requirement just because he was celebrated last year, therefore he has to be criticized this season.

My question is: do you think the 13-21 record in 1-run games is indicative of his managerial ability? If so, wouldn't it be more prudent to see what his record is over the course of his career and compare it to other successful (and not-so successful) peers?

I'm not adverse to the idea that a manager's (limited or otherwise) ability to effect the outcome of a game can be manifested in 1-run games. I just think if there is anything to it, that's something we can get a better sense of by looking at a broader range of games. Managerial ability probably doesn't change much from season-to-season, especially not nearly as much as performance on the field which is susceptible to psychological impacts, injuries, etc.

[757690]

I don't have a problem with any of Dusty's moves this season until today's. All the previous ones had a logical explanation and most often are just Monday morning quarterbacking.

But this one was inexcusable, and a result of two major flaws that Dusty has.

1. Keeps players in their roles until they prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that they don't deserve that role anymore.

2. Believes that a team should have only one closer.

The problem that I had with bringing Cordero in was not that he had pitched in the last two days, but that he had pitched terribly in the last two days. He clearly didn't have his best stuff and with the All-Star break coming up, the logical thing to do was to give him some long rest.

One additional point, is that Cordero has always been a decent closer, but never a great one. Streaks like these are normal for him, as it is normal for him to bounce back and reel off a dozen or so great outings. I have faith that Cordero will be a decent closer the rest of the season, but that does mean a few more streaks like the one he just had.

[MartyFan]

Originally Posted by alexad

FIRE DUSTY! This team needs someone like Billy Martin as the manager. Kick someones butt and take names later. He has this team Oma complete mess. The bullpen is a mess.

His name is Pete MacKanin...he is the right guy the same way Special K was and is the right guy.

[edabbs44]

Originally Posted by fearofpopvol1

I thought this was very interesting. CTrent retweeted this, which I take as an endorsement that he pretty much feels how many at RZ do...

MisterRedlegs Good? Sure. He knows his clubhouse, players, but gets too rigid on roles, matchups. RT @bendeclue: Do you think [Baker's] a good manager?

That Dusty is a good manager?

[OldXOhio]

Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling

We need a manager that throws a tantrum after a tough loss. It helps the players hit and pitch better the next day. Right now we just have broadcasters that throw hissy fits, but Brennaman hissy fits are largely ineffective unless they are sleekly coordinated with a managerial tirade in the clubhouse.

Managerial incompetence trumps tantrums and team meetings. I suggest the next time Dusty calls a closed door session to discuss team performance, he point the microscope back at himself to start with.

[Boss-Hog]

As long as there is semi-intelligent discussion instead of just venting without any thought behind it, I'll probably be OK with the thread.

[Mainspark]

In real-life situations, but not on this message board, I've been an ardent and loyal defender of Dusty's since he became Reds manager.
The ninth inning today marked the first time I found myself thinking that as good a person as he seems to be, it's time for him to go.

[Roy Tucker]

Generally speaking, I can usually understand the moves that Dusty makes.

He's loyal to his players almost to a fault. When the game unfolds, I can plug the situation into my DustyMoves v1.0 app and out spits his move. You can't say that he isn't predictable.

Most of the time, he wants to show a player that he has confidence in him in a certain role at a certain time. Which often times works out and he really is a player's manager.

But I my app busted on him putting in Cordero today. Dusty is an intelligent man and it seemed blatantly obvious that Cordero was out of gas. Dusty has proved his loyalty to Cordero time and time again and he didn't need to today. Today was the day to say "he's not pitching today" and brought in Masset or Ondrusek. It wouldn't have been a disloyalty to Cordero.

[edabbs44]

Originally Posted by Roy Tucker

Generally speaking, I can usually understand the moves that Dusty makes.

He's loyal to his players almost to a fault. When the game unfolds, I can plug the situation into my DustyMoves v1.0 app and out spits his move. You can't say that he isn't predictable.

Most of the time, he wants to show a player that he has confidence in him in a certain role at a certain time. Which often times works out and he really is a player's manager.

But I my app busted on him putting in Cordero today. Dusty is an intelligent man and it seemed blatantly obvious that Cordero was out of gas. Dusty has proved his loyalty to Cordero time and time again and he didn't need to today. Today was the day to say "he's not pitching today" and brought in Masset or Ondrusek. It wouldn't have been a disloyalty to Cordero.

Ondrusek, when today would have been 5 straight games?

[fearofpopvol1]

Originally Posted by edabbs44

That Dusty is a good manager?

That he puts too much emphasis on roles and matchups unnecessarily.

[reds44]

Dusty has his flaws, just like any other manager does. He's a good manager though, and in fact I love the fact that he learns from his mistakes. He's a better manager now than he was in Chicago or San Francisco.

[kaldaniels]

We can go one by one and ridicule every player/manager for a move that they made during the 2011 season. Things happen. I don't think the Reds are floundering in 4th place because of Dusty...it is because of lack of execution.

For crying out loud, what would the reaction be on here had Dusty done what LaGenius did the other night...eliminating NeckTat from the game cause he flubbed the lineup card at the start. Seriously...the board would have crashed.

Dusty has his pros and cons, just like anyone.

/But yeah he screwed up pitching Cordero Sat night. No debate needed.

[Ron Madden]

Originally Posted by edabbs44

Ondrusek, when today would have been 5 straight games?

Ondrusak only threw 7 pitches Friday and 14 pitches Saturday,

Bill Bray only threw 6 pitches Friday and 10 pitches Saturday, per Lance McAlister's blog.

The blame for today's loss should be laid at the feet of Dusty Baker.

[kaldaniels]

Originally Posted by Ron Madden

Ondrusak only threw 7 pitches Friday and 14 pitches Saturday,

Bill Bray only threw 6 pitches Friday and 10 pitches Saturday, per Lance McAlister's blog.

The blame for today's loss should be laid at the feet of Dusty Baker.

It is never that simple.

Devil's Advocate: How much blame does Bruce get for getting thrown at at third?