Trade Proposal: Toronto & Cincinnati

[bounty37h]

Originally Posted by Vottomatic

Well, the problem I see is that you're trying to add to Bautista to create a great 3-4 combination. The problem is that we'd want Bautista in return.

We do need pitching, but it seems like your GM is trying to build a good young nucleus of starting pitching, so I doubt he gives much of it up.

Votto isn't even 30, and will probably win a batting title someday along with hitting 35 HR's and knocking in 120+ rbi. He is that good. If his numbers seem down it's because he doesn't have a Ryan Braun or Matt Holliday behind him to protect him. Thus he lead the NL in walks. Opposing pitchers avoid pitching to Joey like the plague. Seriously.

I'd like to hear who you'd propose to trade for Votto?

Not sure who I would want-just not familiar enough with who they have in system, but I personally dont want Bautista.

[Pony Boy]

Originally Posted by JaysFanToronto

Seriously though. Anyone? Just for the record Romero, Bautista, and Lawrie are probably untradeable.

Then you can probably forget about Votto until he hits FA in 2 years. If the Reds move Votto they will want an elite player with a good contract. I don't think they will ship him off for a package of good prospects.

[swaisuc]

The problem is that both teams are in "win now" mode. This means that neither Votto or Bautista is getting dealt for prospects.

I don't see any way they get moved unless its for each other. If that deal happens, it seems like somewhat of a lateral move to me for both sides.

We may revisit at trade deadline of 2013 though.

[brm7675]

Originally Posted by JaysFanToronto

Hi guys, Jays fan here in peace. Not sure if this is the appropriate place to post this thread, so if not, please mods feel free to relocate.

I'm here curious about your teams situation particularly in regards to the retaining or trading of Joey Votto. Is there a serious possibility he could be available for the right price and what would that price be?

Our team has a glaring need for an elite first baseman or dh who can hopefully hit behind Jose Bautista and offer legit protection (he led the league in bb's this year and has an over 500 obp with men on base)

Unfortunately our gm has already said that the team isn't poised to add a type-a free agent (so that eliminates Feilder and Pujols), and that he would prefer to solve our team needs, via trade. That brings us to Votto, the hometown boy. Not only would he give us a potent 3/4 combination with Bautista, but along with Brett Lawrie we would have two Canadians on the corners.

Now the Jays and the Reds may not be natural trading partners or be the best fit, and from reading some of your posts many of you seem to agree. But what our gm has done in the past has been to use multiple team trades in order to get every team what they need.

But for arguments sake let's discuss what the parameters of a two team swap might look like. Keep in mind we have the third best farm system in all of baseball (only behind Texas and Tampa) according to Baseball America and the deepest out of those two.

I'll post some of our tradeable assets after I've heard some of your thoughts.

I don't think the Jays would be willing to take the risk. Votto only has two years left on his present deal and has said he plans on testing the free agent market, which means the Jays would have to pony up either before that on the level that Fielder/Albert are going to get or get into a bidding war with other teams. I don't see Votto being traded at all.

[Pony Boy]

Originally Posted by swaisuc

The problem is that both teams are in "win now" mode. This means that neither Votto or Bautista is getting dealt for prospects.

I don't see any way they get moved unless its for each other. If that deal happens, it seems like somewhat of a lateral move to me for both sides.

We may revisit at trade deadline of 2013 though.

It may be a lateral move in terms of offensive numbers for the first couple of years of a Votto/Bautista deal, but it makes sense for both sides.

Jays get a younger player that probably has a better chance of continuing MVP caliber play in the short-term and the long-term (giving the fact that Bautista's awesomeness came out of nowhere and could just as easily vanish). Plus Votto will be a fan favorite that probably will give the Jays a home-town discount in his new contract.

Reds get a team-friendly contract for an MVP caliber player. Plus he solves the Alonso problem and the LF problem once and for all.

[bounty37h]

Originally Posted by Pony Boy

It may be a lateral move in terms of offensive numbers for the first couple of years of a Votto/Bautista deal, but it makes sense for both sides.

Jays get a younger player that probably has a better chance of continuing MVP caliber play in the short-term and the long-term (giving the fact that Bautista's awesomeness came out of nowhere and could just as easily vanish). Plus Votto will be a fan favorite that probably will give the Jays a home-town discount in his new contract.

Reds get a team-friendly contract for an MVP caliber player. Plus he solves the Alonso problem and the LF problem once and for all.

I personally think Bautista is a fraud, anything more than Janish for a straight up trade I avoid with him.

[FireDusty]

If we couldn't get a major league ready & proven 3rd Basemen and/or leftfielder, we would need an ace pitcher.

Votto is every bit the impact player that Prince & Albert are.

[smixsell]

No way I trade Votto for any combination of Toronto players that doesn't include Bautista.

Sorry chum, you can't have your cake and eat it as well.

[izzy's dad]

Toronto gets Joey Votto, Juan Francisco (spelling?), and Travis Wood

Cinci gets Morrow, Lawrie, Drabek, Marisnik/Thames

Deal?

[nux fan]

how about bautista, morrow for cairo , renteria, and ondrusez

[nate1213]

Romero, Alvarez, and one of your top position prospects for Votto and maybe a lower level prospect.

[Redsnake]

Bautista and Morrow for Stubbs and Votto.

[FireDusty]

Originally Posted by Redsnake

Bautista and Morrow for Stubbs and Votto.

This.

[Vottomatic]

Originally Posted by JaysFanToronto

Seriously though. Anyone? Just for the record Romero, Bautista, and Lawrie are probably untraceable.

Roster guys with value and who could be available:

Yunel Escobar: 28, slick fielding. Shortstop. Signed for the next 2 years with two team options, total 16mill value. 290/369/413 11hr 48rbi 61bb/70k in 2011.

Colby Rasmus: 25, cf, five-tool player. Three more years of arbitration. Struggled this year but hit 276/361/498 with 23hr 66rbi 12sb last year.

Eric Thames: 24, of/dh. Controlable for six more years. Average defender, sweet swing, quick bat. Kind of reminds me of Fred Lewis but with 25 home run power. 263/314/457 12hr 36 RBI in 357ab in this, his first year.

Travis Snider: 23, lf/rf. Former number 6 prospect in all of baseball. Injuries and inconsistency have led him not to live up to expectation. Still controllable for 4 more years. Still has lots of potential to hit for power and average with above average defense. Last year was best MLB season with 255/304/463 with 14hr 32rbi in 298ab.

Kyle Drabek: 23, rhp. Our top prospect last year, top 20 prospect in baseball. Great stuff, and bloodlines. Plus fastball 93-97, plus curveball, surprisingly effective change up. Struggled this year, his first full year, throwing strikes but still has all the potential in the world. Upside of a number 2 starter, often compared to Clay Bucholz who also struggled early in career.

Brandon Morrow: 27, rhp. Power pitcher with unbelievable stuff but consistency issues. Two more years of arbitration. Plus fastball 94-98, plus slider. 11-11 this year with 4.76ers and 200k and 68bb in 180ip. Similar to AJ Burnett in terms of stuff, but not a head case.

Henderson Alvarez: 21, rhp. Power pitcher considered our best pitching prospect. Strike thrower with turbo sinker and incredible movement on his pitches. Fastball 94-97 (reportedly as high as 101 in AA), plus change up, command and control, plus makeup/mound presence. Slider is a work in progress but has shown flashes of being above average in majors. 1-3 in 10 starts, 3.53era, 1.13whip, 63.2pm, 64h, 8th, 40k.

Farm System Top 15 Prospects (according to me):

1) Travis D'Arnaud: (22, AA) Double-A MVP. 311/371/542. 6'2, Projects to hit for plus power, and average. Solid plate control, but could improve. Plus makeup and leadership, recieving, arm, game calling. Voted best defensive catcher in eastern league. Playing style comparable to Buster Posey. Actually put up comparable numbers to Posey in AA at age 22, that Posey put up in A+ at age 23.

2) Jake Marisnik: (20, -A) 6'4 Right-handed, five-tool player with plus arm, speed, bat, power, and glove in centre or right. Compared to Matt Kemp and Hunter Pence. Voted 3rd best player in MWL. 320/392/496 14hr 77rbi 37sb 8cs 43bb/91k.

3) Drew Hutchison: (20, AA) Top pitching prospect after Alvarez graduated. 6'2 rhp, Control specialist with a tick above average fastball and a little more projection left. Fastball 92-95, plus change up, above average slider and curve. Has unbelievable command and control of three pitches. Comparable to Diamondbacks Ian Kennedy but with better velocity. Between -A/+A/AA 14-5, 2.53era, 149.1ip, 120h, 35bb, 171k.

4) Anthony Gose: (20, AA) Another five-tool type of player. 6'1, lefty, young for his league and raw. Projects as a Carl Crawford clone. Plus speed and arm (97 from mound), already said to posses gold glove caliber defense in center. Bat needs some work but made solid progress this season in terms of bop and power. 253/349/415 16hr 59rbi 70sb 15cs. .991 fielding percentage.

5) Nestor Molina: (22, AA) 6'1 rhp with unreal command and control. Reminds me of Jair Jurggens from Atlanta. Solid repertoire across the board with four pitches. Fastball 90-94, plus splitter and cutter, average curve and slider.
In AA posted a 2-0 record in 5 starts with a 0.41era, 22ip, 12h, 2bb, 33k. Over two levels +A/AA 12-3 record, 2.21 era, 130.1ip, 114h, 16bb, 148k.

6) Noah Syndergaard: (18, -A) 6'7 rhp with power stuff. Recently grew two inches from 6'5. Workhorse build and smooth arm action produces incredible velocity at 95-100, was said to have hit 103 on the gun this year. Projects to have a plus curveball, but it currently needs refinement. An advanced change up for his age like many Jays prospects. Been compared to Josh Johnson, but his delivery and velocity remind me of Strasburg (lofty comparison I know). Unlike many power pitchers has incredible fastball command and control. Between 11 games in Rk/-A posted 5-2 record with a 1.83era, 59ip, 46h, 18bb, 68k.

7) Justin Nicolino: (19, -A) 6'3 projectable lefty with good stuff and great command and control. Fastball 92-95, plus change up, and improving slider. Projects as a Cliff Lee type with potentially more velocity with strength gains. Posted 6-2 record in 15 -A games with 1.33era, 61ip, 39h, 13bb, 73k.

8) AJ Jimenez: (21, +A) 5'11 right-handed hitting catcher. Stocky with a quick bat and plus bat control and athleticism. Plus defender as well in terms of throwing and receiving, as well as blocking. Voted the best defensive catcher in the FSL. Had only 6 errors and a .992 fielding percentage with only 6 past balls. Threw out 44% of runners (38cs-48sb). Hit 303/353/417 in only 379ab with 4hr 52rbi 11sb 2cs 28bb/60k. Also hit 29 doubles which suggest possibly more power. The FSL he played in is a notorious pitcher's league and I believe he could hit 10-15 home runs someday.

9) Chris Hawkins: (19, Rk) 6'2 lefty hitting OF. Toolsy, but not quite a five tool guy. Comparable to Colby Rasmus in that way, but has better character and makeup. Between -A/A posted 3.03era, 9-5 record, 125ip, 109h, 45bb, 124k. Can play all three outfield positions. Hit 318/375/492 in the Appy League with 5hr 52rbi 14sb 4cs 22bb 46k.

10) Jacob Anderson: (18, Rk) Firstround pick this year. 6'4 right handed hitting right fielder. Plus raw power and plus speed. Projects as a Matt Kemp type.
Hit 405/476/622 in 37ab with 2hr 7rbi 2sb 4th 8k in small sample in GCL. Huge upside.

11) Daniel Norris: (18, Just Drafted) 6'3 high schooler. Power lefty with excellent command and control. Fastball 93-96, above average curve, feel for change.

12) Adeiny Hechavarria: (22, AAA) Five-tool type athlete with the bat and the power the only question mark. Already has plus defense at shortstop, and is believed to have gold glove potential someday. Has struggled a little with the bat though he has hit over 300 against lecture he struggles against righties. Defected from Cuba just last year and is still adjusting to north America. After promotion to Las Vegas of the PCL began to tear the cover off the ball 389/431/537 in 108ab 2nd 11rbi 8th 21k.

13) Aaron Sanchez: (18, -A) Firstround pick in 2010. Power rhp, with plus fastball and curve ball, but inconsistent command and control. Fastball 90-95 with projection still. 5.46era this year in Rk and -A but posted 1.42era last year with 19ip, 19h, 12bb, 28k.

14) Moises Sierra: (22, AA) Rightfielder with incredible raw power and an 80 arm in the outfield. Reminds me of Jose Bautista or Jose Guillen without the crazy. Hit 277/342/436 18hr 67rbi 16sb 39bb 93k this year. More power in there.

15) Michael Crouse: (20, -A) Toolsy outfielder with speed, plus power, and takes walks. Has been compared to Jermaine Dye minus the arm in right. Hit 261/352/475 in the MWL with 14hr 55rbi 38sb 8cs 44bb 113k

Honorable Mention: Deck McGuire, Marcus Knect, Santiago Nessy, Chino Vega, Asher Wojohouski.

Well that,s about it. I'm sure I missed some but that should be good enough for now. The unfortunate thing is that our best prospect plays the same position as your best prospect. Maybe we can flip him to Colorado for Nolan Arenado to give you guys a third add an you need. Also keep in mind that our organization has the money to take on a. Bad contract/salary dump to facilitate a deal (we took Mark Teahan's contract from Chicago in order to get Rasmus from St.Louis.

If the Reds could pry 2 topnotch starting pitchers away from Toronto for Votto and Stubbs, and one or two of our young pitchers not named Cueto or Leake, I'd consider it.

Votto (rising stud), Stubbs (former #1 pick), Bailey (former #1 pick), Volquez (former cy young candidate) for Alvarez (young), Drabek (unproven), Bautista (older than most).

2B Phillips
SS Cozart
1B Alonso
LF Bautista
CF Heisey
RF Bruce
3B Francisco/Rolen
C Hanigan/Mez

Potential to get 20+ HR's out of 7 of those positions.

Cueto
Alvarez (cheap)
Leake (cheap)
Arroyo
Drabek (cheap)

[texasdave]

Would you people please stop with all of these multi-player megadeals that make perfect sense? Walt has no time for that. He is out scouring the ends of the earth for the next Renteria or Cabrera or Lewis or Taveras.