2011 Bengals Discussion

[remdog]

Totally disagree Stray. Little Mikey would have sat on his hands just out of spite because that's just the way he is.

Rem

[Stray]

Originally Posted by remdog

Totally disagree Stray. Little Mikey would have sat on his hands just out of spite because that's just the way he is.

Rem

I would have agreed with you before. As it turns out Mike was willing to make the deal if a team offered enough. I realize he's a bad owner, but he deserves some credit here.

[Todd Gack]

Originally Posted by Redsfaithful

Do you or would you go to Reds games? They've been no better since Marvin Lewis was hired. They've actually probably been worse.

I'm not a Mike Brown fan, but they've been a pretty average team the last 8-9 years. If Carson hadn't gotten hurt they'd have been above average more than likely.

Let me ask you this simple question:

Which organization do you think cares more about the fans?

[The Operator]

Originally Posted by Todd Gack

Let me ask you this simple question:

Which organization do you think cares more about the fans?

I know what you're getting at - but other than his dopey "we're not going to lose anymore, rah rah" quotes in the paper, Cast hasn't exactly been super committed to winning.

Cast plays the PR game better than Uncle Carl ever did, but other than that it seems he's running the Reds on pretty much the exact same mindset.

[Redsfaithful]

Originally Posted by Todd Gack

Let me ask you this simple question:

Which organization do you think cares more about the fans?

That's important, I agree, but mostly what I care about is results on the field, and both franchises have been lacking.

It'd be nice if Bengals had a "Bengals Fest" (I'd take my sons just like I take them to Reds Fest), a Ring of Honor, etc. but ultimately I just want them competitive most years. Same deal with the Reds. I'm pretty easy to please, I don't need championships, just stay relevant most seasons. Since 2003, that's been the Bengals way more than the Reds.

[traderumor]

Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman

Mike Brown is not a genius.

Hue Jackson has been trying to get Carson since the season started. How ever, he had an owner that did not want to make a trade. He also had a second QB.

The perfect storm happened. The owner died, the QB got injured, and the cards suddenly fell into Brown's lap. The only reason he had Palmer is because there were no offers good enough to make him appease Palmer. He was very immature and took a pefect storm in the week of the deadline to make things happen.

He's no more a genius than the poker player who gets a pair of two's on the flop after going in with 2-7 off suit.

I don't think those giving kudos are arguing that he is. The poker analogy is about winning a nice pot by playing your cards right and, since it is a game of chance, drawing some good cards to win the hand. Poker, when money is on the table, is a game of skill and luck, which is what makes it a fun game. This transaction had both elements.

So, I agree that Mike Brown is not a genius, but he did win this hand with a good sized pot attached. I don't see any need to not give credit when it is due (unless its the Cardinals), although I'm suspicious that this part of the game was played by him. I think all he did was let someone use his chips to stay in the game.

[Yachtzee]

Originally Posted by Johnny Footstool

He walked away from a good portion of that money.

He got fed up with Mike Brown, and he asked to be traded. Brown refused, so rather than take the money and go through the motions, he quit.

Actually, he already got a lot of his money before he played a down. Signing bonuses are the best kind of guarantee because its money in hand before you've been asked to perform. In contract law, that's called consideration, which means once you take that money, you have a duty to perform the contract. The way NFL contracts are actually constructed, the signing bonus should be considered the real compensation and the so-called "salary" is really a performance bonus.

In the real world, if anyone of us signed a contract paying us up front and refused to perform, we would be sued civilly for breach of contract and could also be charged with theft. On top of that, our employer could even prevent us from working for competitors for the length of the contract.

If NFL players wanted more flexibility in deciding when they can leave a team, they could alway just sign one year contracts and renegotiate every year.

[Hillsdale87]

Originally Posted by Redsfaithful

Do you or would you go to Reds games? They've been no better since Marvin Lewis was hired. They've actually probably been worse.

I'm not a Mike Brown fan, but they've been a pretty average team the last 8-9 years. If Carson hadn't gotten hurt they'd have been above average more than likely.

One difference is that the playing field is far more level in football. It's one thing in baseball when your limited by your market and payroll limitations keep you from consistently competing. It's still frustrating, but I think fans are a little more understanding. In football though, fans see Mike Brown as the cheapest owner in the game not due to market limitations, but his own stubbornness and greed. It's true that the Bengals have been average, but he refuses to invest what is necessary to push them beyond that.

[traderumor]

Originally Posted by Hillsdale87

One difference is that the playing field is far more level in football. It's one thing in baseball when your limited by your market and payroll limitations keep you from consistently competing. It's still frustrating, but I think fans are a little more understanding. In football though, fans see Mike Brown as the cheapest owner in the game not due to market limitations, but his own stubbornness and greed. It's true that the Bengals have been average, but he refuses to invest what is necessary to push them beyond that.

This is only partially true. There is still a dirty little secret that gets very little publicity about money some NFL franchises generate for various reasons that is off-the-books for salary cap purposes, but is still used to lure free agents. The funny part of it is that two orgs., Washington and Dallas, that I know of who have these types of resources are struggling to field a playoff team, while two teams in "small" markets, such as Buffalo and Cincinnati, figure out how to field playoff teams in this environment. The only press this issue got that I've seen was when Brown and Ralph Wilson got out of step with the ownership cartel and started talking about this issue and voted against something a few years ago.

But so many Bengals fans can't let go of the pre-Marvin Bengals that they can't see that this franchise is no more dysfunctional than all but a few NFL orgs.

[IslandRed]

Originally Posted by Yachtzee

Actually, he already got a lot of his money before he played a down. Signing bonuses are the best kind of guarantee because its money in hand before you've been asked to perform. In contract law, that's called consideration, which means once you take that money, you have a duty to perform the contract. The way NFL contracts are actually constructed, the signing bonus should be considered the real compensation and the so-called "salary" is really a performance bonus.

In the real world, if anyone of us signed a contract paying us up front and refused to perform, we would be sued civilly for breach of contract and could also be charged with theft. On top of that, our employer could even prevent us from working for competitors for the length of the contract.

If NFL players wanted more flexibility in deciding when they can leave a team, they could alway just sign one year contracts and renegotiate every year.

In the real world, agents exist to make sure the actual contract language doesn't say what you say it's saying.

Now, you are correct about one thing -- if a player takes a big signing bonus, he owes the team his best effort over a certain time period. Where you're incorrect is the assumption that this time period is the entire nominal length of the contract. No one in the NFL signs "real" nine-year contracts. The only reason deals are ever that long is because the player is doing the team a favor -- giving the club a longer period to pro-rate the signing bonus so it saves them room under the salary cap in the near term. If you're going to lawyer up and try to cut them off at the knees for going along with that, then expect them to stop doing that.

[The Operator]

Carson is in mid-season form already for Oakland, throwing a 58-yard pick six.

[The Operator]

Carson has thrown a second interception, with a hefty 17.9 QB rating. Love it!

[Patrick Bateman]

Originally Posted by The Operator

Carson has thrown a second interception, with a hefty 17.9 QB rating. Love it!

It's a pre-season game for him against players in mid season form.

Dont think there's much to gloat about here.

[Stray]

3 interceptions for Carson in a little more than a quarter. Ouch.

[The Operator]

Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman

It's a pre-season game for him against players in mid season form.

Dont think there's much to gloat about here.

Yea well I'm gonna anyway.