2011 Bengals Discussion

[Patrick Bateman]

MWM, that sums up my feelings very well. Very nice post.

[bucksfan2]

Originally Posted by MWM

Man, there are some serious over-reactions to all kinds of things in this thread. First of all, that was Marvin's perception, which could be influenced by him just trying to save face. Marvin decided to stay, but I don't think it was because he wanted to be in Cincinnati as much as its a pretty safe job with Mike Brown as his boss and there's a good chance he wouldn't be in high demand elsewhere. A head coaching gig in the NFL is a pretty good thing to have. Don't think Marvin is somehow objective in this. Carson sure didn't look like he had quit against San Diego last year. It's all a crock of BS if you ask me. I still don't blame Carson one bit for not wanting to play in Cincy anymore. He possibly could have handled it better but I can understand why he was so miserable here.

I think I will attack this bit by bit. I somewhat agree with this notion. I think familiarity and the impending lockout were the driving forces for Marvin to resign with Cincy. I also tend to believe that in part of the deal he got more power given to him and more taken away from Mike. Its true that there are only 32 NFL jobs in the country but the guy has made his millions, could move on as an assistant, work in TV, or head to the college game. Even bad NFL coaches get well paying jobs after their HC tenure is gone.

And I can't believe people are making judgments based on last Sunday when he had 3 days of practice after not having any training camp or anything else. If you think he won't be better, either later this year or next year, you're just not thinking clearly. He's not an elite QB but to think he's going to be a bad one is believing what you want to believe.

I don't think anybody is making concrete judgements on Carson based upon last weeks showing. It was awful, abysmal, terrible, anyway you want to spin it. The Raiders weren't good and Carson came in only knowing a few plays and having practiced with high schoolers for all but 3 days. I can't help but notice that some of the things that plagued him in the past showed up against the Chiefs. Mainly back footed throws and pick 6's. Im not really going to make any judgements on Carson this year, I don't think it would be a fair judgment. He isn't an elite QB, hasn't been an elite QB for a couple of seasons now. I see the Carson of 2010 going forward, which isn't something to write home about.

I also think people are WAY ahead of themselves on Dalton. I love what the guy has done and the intangibles he seems to bring with him, but all these same things were said about Palmer once upon a time, and Palmer had MUCH more talent. Let's give him a few years in this organization and see how much leadership he has. Jon Kitna has great leadership skills, I doubt anyone wants him back.

I like Dalton and I know many have gotten ahead of themselves. I also know that a lot of the national guys also like Dalton. Looking back Palmer was never the leader. Its not to say that he was a bad QB, he was a top tier QB for a couple of season. But I still think he allowed the strong personalities to take control of the huddle. That was fine and dandy during the good times, but awful during the less that stellar times. I don't think anyone is going to say that Palmer doesn't possess more prototypical talent that Dalton. He is talker, bigger, and has a stronger arm. But Dalton possesses things like mobility, a quick release, and so far leadership. I was a huge Palmer fan, heck he is the only NFL player I ever bought a jersey of. I always thought he as a stand up guy who would bring playoff success to this organization. Unfortunately that didn't happen and he quit his way out of town. To be honest I watched the 2nd half of the Raiders game last week with a little smile on my face.

I'll readily admit that I'm biased when it comes to the Bengals...biased by cynicism. I'll continue to root for them and hope they turn into a team capable of winning in the playoffs, but I've seen this movie before. In the past 20 years, this same cycle where something or someone comes along and everyone thinks "this is different" and start to believe the franchise has turned the corner and has a bright future has happened at least 4-5 times. I don't see how this is any different. It's not hard to put together a team that is close to winning. Anyone can do that every once in a while. It's difficult to take that next step to having an organization that can seriously compete for a super bowl. I don't believe Mike Brown has any clue how to get there. He can get them close and do enough to provide optimism, but he'll never get them over the edge. Doesn't mean I won't be a fan and hope for something better, but I'm not going to invest in any kind of belief that it will like a lot of people are doing.

Seen a lot of people with the same reaction as you have. Doesn't make it wrong and it doesn't make it right. As a fan I am enjoying this season, a young QB and a stud rookie WR. I also know that they have a very good D as well as a number of draft picks in the upcoming drafts. I too am skeptical that Mike Brown will make the right calls going forward in the drafts and free agency, but if the 2011 season is any indication then the Bengals are heading in the right direction.

[MWM]

Everyone saying Carson wasn't a leader have a short-term memory. When he first became the starter, fans and coaches and players all raved about his leadership skills. Just because he wasn't a rah-rah vocal leader does not mean he didn't lead. His style was different. I also hear him criticized for not managing the egos in the huddle. I can think of only one, and that was ocho. TO was last year only.

Do people really think Dalton would be doing any better with Chad? What's going to happen when AJ Green is seen as one of the best WRs in the game and becomes a typical diva WR? Not saying it will happen, but I think there's a good chance it will. He was very diva like in college and he's already being treated like NFL royalty. Will Dalton be able to be an effective leader if that happens? Leadership is such a nebulous term with all kinds of meanings, all of which are very subjective. People think it's a silver bullet in sports. It's not, not even close. There have been a small handful of QBs in history who could have really managed Chad's and TO's ego and all of them were top tier all time QBs. You have to be in the same league as the person with the go if you want to lead. A decent QB with an elite receiver is not going to work if the receiver doesn't want it to.

I like what I see from Dalton a lot and hope he turns into a great QB. But he's started 6 games against mostly bad teams. Let's way to see how he handles adversity. Then we'll see how much he has in the way of intangibles. He does have one thing going for him, Bratkowski is not his OC. If Brat had stuck around, we would not being having these conversations.

[Sea Ray]

Originally Posted by Redsfaithful

I think it's based on the contract the FA receives, and Joseph got a huge one. The FAs the Bengals signed do matter, but Clements, Lawson, and Howard put together aren't making what Joseph is making.

It's based on more than salary as noted by the piece you referenced. In fact other than salary, all the other factors can't be evaluated until after the season

[Stray]

Originally Posted by MWM

Let's way to see how he handles adversity. Then we'll see how much he has in the way of intangibles.

I get that a lot of fans feel the way you do, to each their own. I personally try to keep things simple. When they're doing well it's enjoyable for me to watch them play. Instead of predicting what will go wrong I'd rather focus on what we've already done right. I guess I'm a glass half full guy.

To the part I quoted though. As you mentioned he's only started 6 games, and of course it's hard to make any real judgements on that sample size, but I don't think it's fair to say he hasn't faced adversity already. With the lockout and lack of OTAs and rookie camps/whatever else was cut short, he made the best of his situation and has wrapped his mind around our offense quicker than anyone could have hoped. He was facing a 20-3 deficit against the last undefeated AFC team and led his team to a victory. He's already overcame an injury and somewhat shortened week. His 4th quarter and 4th down decisions/play making have been off the chart. He's had a TERRIBLE 1st half that he rebounded from in the same game.

Now granted, I know he hasn't faced as much as Carson did, but like you said he's just 6 games in.

[MWM]

Adversity is a 3-13 season with Mike Brown as an owner. Adversity is trying to be the QB of an ego-centric diva receiver who's all about himself and grabs a lot of attention. It's playing for one of the worst OC's in the game year in and year out.

The type of adversity that will truly test a guy's mettle isn't being down a few scores against a good team or not having a few extra weeks of practice in the off-season. Wait until they have a 6 game losing streak. That's when we'll learn what type of intangibles Andy Dalton has.

[Stray]

Originally Posted by MWM

Adversity is a 3-13 season with Mike Brown as an owner. Adversity is trying to be the QB of an ego-centric diva receiver who's all about himself and grabs a lot of attention. It's playing for one of the worst OC's in the game year in and year out.

The type of adversity that will truly test a guy's mettle isn't being down a few scores against a good team or not having a few extra weeks of practice in the off-season. Wait until they have a 6 game losing streak. That's when we'll learn what type of intangibles Andy Dalton has.

There are different degrees of adversity. To say he hasn't had to deal with any 6 games into his career is incorrect, he hasn't had to deal with what Carson had to.

That ego-centric receiver also made Carson look pretty good in his prime. Lost in all of the stuff towards the end of Chad's career has been just how dominant he was in his prime. I'm not bashing Carson here, I think a lot of good and bad can be said about the guy. The way he's taken the high road in the past week or so has been pretty cool in my book.

I just don't understand the doom and gloom outlook. If the Bengals ever drove me to the point as a fan where I'm worrying about potential bad stuff that might happen, and not about the good stuff that has happened, I'd have to question why it is even follow the team anymore. Like I said though, to each his own. With the adversity that Dalton has faced in 6 weeks he's responded extremely well...not just him either, the entire team. Dropping the dead weight did wonders for this team in that respect.

[MWM]

Don't understand the doom and gloom for the Bengals? Really?

[Stray]

I get why people feel that way, I just don't understand the point of it. To be perfectly honest, over my lifetime the Reds being terrible has bothered me a lot more than the Bengals so maybe I'm just not as emotionally invested as others are.

I would just think that with all of the years of being bad, and all of the years of talking about this team for all of the wrong reasons, this season...and these two rookies, would be a breath of fresh air for the fans. Something to be able to get behind and enjoy. I'm not talking about you specifically, I just notice from radio or online forums how many Bengals fans can't let themselves enjoy it. There's always the yeah buts, and the what ifs, they haven't played anyone, and the well eventually it's all gonna go downhill so what does it matter.

[MWM]

There's a difference between choosing to not focus on the negative and to focus on having hope things are different because it makes more sense as a fan; and actually thinking it's going to happen. I totally get the former and even try to do that myself. But I stop short of looking at everything and thinking this is actually different and it's going to happen.

[cincrazy]

Carson hasn't been the same since his elbow injury. It's plain as day IMO. He's not an awful QB, but he's not a QB anyone should pay big money to, and he's taking you MAYBE to the first round of the playoffs, and that's it. He's had a nice career, but he fell far, far short of where I thought he'd eventually up. It's natural to be disappointed, and that disappointment can skew the overall view of things.

But in 2005, if you would've told me things would have gone down like this.... wow.

[fearofpopvol1]

Originally Posted by MWM

Man, there are some serious over-reactions to all kinds of things in this thread. First of all, that was Marvin's perception, which could be influenced by him just trying to save face. Marvin decided to stay, but I don't think it was because he wanted to be in Cincinnati as much as its a pretty safe job with Mike Brown as his boss and there's a good chance he wouldn't be in high demand elsewhere. A head coaching gig in the NFL is a pretty good thing to have. Don't think Marvin is somehow objective in this. Carson sure didn't look like he had quit against San Diego last year. It's all a crock of BS if you ask me. I still don't blame Carson one bit for not wanting to play in Cincy anymore. He possibly could have handled it better but I can understand why he was so miserable here.

That's fine and that's your opinion, but don't expect a lot of people to agree with you. It's one thing to be miserable. It's another to sign a contract and not honor it (btw, I'd take Carson's misery at his salary). And to make matters worse, Carson quit the team and claimed he was "retiring" only to sit out in hopes of being traded when his intention was never to retire in the first place. Carson was extremely fortunate that the Raiders were willing to vastly overpay. I'm happy the Bengals received real value for Palmer, but I wouldn't have minded seeing him forced to either reunite with the Bengals and sit on the bench or actually be forced to retire like he claimed.

[Redsfaithful]

Originally Posted by MWM

There's a difference between choosing to not focus on the negative and to focus on having hope things are different because it makes more sense as a fan; and actually thinking it's going to happen. I totally get the former and even try to do that myself. But I stop short of looking at everything and thinking this is actually different and it's going to happen.

The thing is, even Mike Brown can get lucky. It hasn't really happened in 20 years, but that doesn't mean it's impossible. I don't expect the organization to be any different that it has been for the past 8 years, but I don't believe the Colts ownership is really all that much better than the Bengals, for instance, but look what Peyton Manning did for that franchise.

Not saying Andy Dalton is Peyton Manning, AT ALL, but it's possible the Bengals could put a few drafts together and have enough to make some deeper playoff runs.

I don't need that much from the Bengals. As Stray mentions, the Reds have bothered me more in the past decade than the Bengals. Castellini gets a pass on competitiveness for some reason that I don't really agree with.

[MWM]

Originally Posted by fearofpopvol1

That's fine and that's your opinion, but don't expect a lot of people to agree with you. It's one thing to be miserable. It's another to sign a contract and not honor it (btw, I'd take Carson's misery at his salary). And to make matters worse, Carson quit the team and claimed he was "retiring" only to sit out in hopes of being traded when his intention was never to retire in the first place. Carson was extremely fortunate that the Raiders were willing to vastly overpay. I'm happy the Bengals received real value for Palmer, but I wouldn't have minded seeing him forced to either reunite with the Bengals and sit on the bench or actually be forced to retire like he claimed.

There are plenty of people who agree with me. And the whole "he signed a contract and should honor it" doesn't hold water with me because NFL teams, including the Bengals, don't do it all the time. If a player doesn't perform, their contract is not honored, so I'm not going to think Carson had some deficiency of character for deciding the Bengals didn't live up to what they said they were going to do, so him not wanting to be stuck.

[MWM]

Originally Posted by Redsfaithful

The thing is, even Mike Brown can get lucky. It hasn't really happened in 20 years, but that doesn't mean it's impossible. I don't expect the organization to be any different that it has been for the past 8 years, but I don't believe the Colts ownership is really all that much better than the Bengals, for instance, but look what Peyton Manning did for that franchise.

Not saying Andy Dalton is Peyton Manning, AT ALL, but it's possible the Bengals could put a few drafts together and have enough to make some deeper playoff runs.

I don't need that much from the Bengals. As Stray mentions, the Reds have bothered me more in the past decade than the Bengals. Castellini gets a pass on competitiveness for some reason that I don't really agree with.

Oh, the Reds are MUCH more a disappointment for me than the Bengals too.

The Colts went to the AFC title game in 1995 before the Peyton era. And the fact that they have a professional General Manager, and a good one at that, by itself makes them an exponentially better organization than the Bengals, IMO.

The problem with getting lucky is that in football it requires too many things to get lucky about. You've got a 55 man roster and the game of football has so many different facets you have to get right that the odds of getting lucky enough to go deep in the playoffs is incredibly slim. You have offensive line, running game, passing game, DBs, linebackers, pass rushers, D-lineman, offensive scheme, defensive scheme, specialty teams, etc... You can get lucky on some of those, but relying on luck in puttin together a football team just doesn't seem feasible.

All that said, I'll continue to hope and pay attention and root, but I'm not going to get excited and start to "believe". I'm just not wired that way in any area of my life.